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Jan 31, 2021
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#81
FreeGrace2 said:
I'm talking about the gospel. It is for EVERYONE. Titus 2:11 says the grace of God offers salvation to everyone. This verse would be totally meaningless IF unbelievers can't understand the gospel.
Offering it to (KJV says "all men").
Ok, so you seem to think the gospel is NOT for women then. Weird. The Greek word means "all" as in everyone. It doesn't mean males only.

Verse 12 says teaching "us". The "us" are the "elect" in verse 1.
Right. Believers are to be taught about grace.

Titus was commissioned by Paul to ordain elders in the churches in the cities of Crete.
How does this apply to the gospel being for everyone?

Your statement says that unbelievers can believe (understand) which is a contradictive statement.
No, I think you are confused. I do NOT believe that understanding means to believe. I understand the story about Santa Claus, but I don't believe in him as a real person. So, understanding isn't believing.

However, to believe something, one MUST understand it first.

FreeGrace2 said:
Right. So, prove otherwise, if you can.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are known as the four gospels.
This does not answer my challenge.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,555
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#82
There are NO LONGER ANY WORKS that we must do for salvation except believe in Jesus Christ and receive all that He has done for us.
Should I suppose you meant to add true repentance to this or was this ommission intentional?

BTW, "believing" is so much more than mere acceptance of God's plan.

AAMOF good works resulting from true faith is the only evidence to ourselves & others that we actually live by faith.

The just shall "LIVE" by faith, not just accept it!
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#83
FreeGrace2 said:
I'm talking about the gospel. It is for EVERYONE. Titus 2:11 says the grace of God offers salvation to everyone. This verse would be totally meaningless IF unbelievers can't understand the gospel.

Ok, so you seem to think the gospel is NOT for women then. Weird. The Greek word means "all" as in everyone. It doesn't mean males only.


Right. Believers are to be taught about grace.


How does this apply to the gospel being for everyone?


No, I think you are confused. I do NOT believe that understanding means to believe. I understand the story about Santa Claus, but I don't believe in him as a real person. So, understanding isn't believing.

However, to believe something, one MUST understand it first.

FreeGrace2 said:
Right. So, prove otherwise, if you can.

This does not answer my challenge.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#84
The word "man" in the scriptures refers to "mankind" which includes both genders.

The inspired words of the bible are written to God's born again children as instructions as to how they are to live their lives here on earth.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#85
All that will….believe in Him shall be born again in Christ and live.
Amen. No works needed to obtain nor maintain our salvation. Just abide in the Vine. :)
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
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#86
BTW, "believing" is so much more than mere acceptance of God's plan.
Yes! It includes a turning away from the old and receiving the new. (y)
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
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#87
“When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is saying his suffering is finished he had completely fulfilled his suffering wrotten on the prophets notice how they gave him vinegar there just before he said that ?

Jesus was fulfilling prophecy

“They gave me also gall for my meat; And in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭69:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that was the last part of his prophetic suffering he knew he had to endure

“But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he was apprehensive about his coming suffering and pain and was stressed until it was finished. When it was finished he said it just as they had fulfilled that final word of prophecy in the psalms regarding his suffering for sin it was now finished

there’s nothing left for Jesus to do now for us now it’s about how we will receive and react to what he’s done

“For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:22‬ ‭

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭

“But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus had finished his trial and now he explains it

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-48‬ ‭

the gospel of Jesus Christ was now finished his suffering and shame was finished and he entered his glory after leaving the gospel with his believers past preeent and future

there is a whole new life to accept and start living alot for us to do the judgement of one’s eternal soul is in two hands alone that are scarred fro. The nails of the cross he will judge and save his people but there’s a lot for us to learn and do and walk in and follow d if we don’t we’re well warned of the consequences

our role isn’t finished yet we have a life to live for him who died for us
“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:4-5‬

“And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The message of complacency and us judging our own salvation ahead of time isn’t leading people towards Jesus who will judge us each according to our works

we should trust I. Jesus fully for salvstion I agree , but this means we need to accept his teachkngs about how to be saved and also warnings about how one is lost

for us to say we can’t be lost and are already saved takes Christ off his throne of judgement he died to inhabit and nullifies all the new testament warnings about losing inheritance in the kingdom

co wider what Paul is saying he didn’t judge his own self even though he was t aware of any sin he was corruptly guilty of he refused to say he was justified because his judge is Jesus and will handle that part

we’re meant to be walking in Christ this means walking within the system of righteousness the gospel sets forth if we dwell on the darkness it doesn’t matter how many times we claim we’re saved it’s not going to save us we have to let Jesus do it his way and wait upon his judgements
While I agree with you, on the matter of the Ten Commandments - It is God's Law for all of the ages. Holy and Just. The laws that represent God's perfect nature for man. The supreme law to expose all sin.

I must take exception to your conclusion about Salvation. You borderline on making Salvation about works. GOOD works comes from being saved - NOT to be saved.

The Biblical verses you employed, to prove your point, are verses dealing with ones Conditional Sanctification, for the most part and not their Positional Sanctification. Conditionally, we must work out our Salvation and make our Calling and Election sure. However, this does not effect our Position but will effect our growth, fellowship and works.

Positional verses that must be taken into consideration are:

John 10:26-28 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Php 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Too mention only a few. One must always make the proper discernment as to whether a topic is Positional in nature or Conditional. Be rest assured however, the Conditional aspects that belong to Salvation, cannot override, displace or alter the Positional assurance.


 
Jan 31, 2021
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#88
Edify said:
BTW, "believing" is so much more than mere acceptance of God's plan.
Yes! It includes a turning away from the old and receiving the new. (y)
Wow. So then, one is saved by their lifestyle. That is what you are agreeing to. Both of you.

But, just to be clear, could either of you explain how one "receives the new"? Sounds rather obtuse. Can anyone clear that up?

Thanks.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,885
5,630
113
#89
While I agree with you, on the matter of the Ten Commandments - It is God's Law for all of the ages. Holy and Just. The laws that represent God's perfect nature for man. The supreme law to expose all sin.

I must take exception to your conclusion about Salvation. You borderline on making Salvation about works. GOOD works comes from being saved - NOT to be saved.

The Biblical verses you employed, to prove your point, are verses dealing with ones Conditional Sanctification, for the most part and not their Positional Sanctification. Conditionally, we must work out our Salvation and make our Calling and Election sure. However, this does not effect our Position but will effect our growth, fellowship and works.

Positional verses that must be taken into consideration are:

John 10:26-28 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Php 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Too mention only a few. One must always make the proper discernment as to whether a topic is Positional in nature or Conditional. Be rest assured however, the Conditional aspects that belong to Salvation, cannot override, displace or alter the Positional assurance.

“I must take exception to your conclusion about Salvation. You borderline on making Salvation about works.”

the Bible does that itself and many hypergracers take umbridge about the conclusions of Paul like this one

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see I just accept that to be true or like this statement from Paul

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I just am willing to accept that part me not erase it because of some random verse about grace Gods work in us , is to get us to start doing everything he told us to do in the gospel because that’s salvation

“God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

the reason he’s working in us to change what we want and also what we actually do is because of what Paul’s clearly saying we’re going to be judged based upon what we do good or bad on our deeds alone

again I just accept Paul’s conclusions

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s just what the Bible says some are offended by it because they read a Joseph prince book or Paul Ellis article d they don’t know what it actually says

so yes I’d say I agree with Paul’s conclusions regarding eternal judgement and our works good or bad I just don’t buy into the hyper grace doctrine in the modern world explaining Jesus did t know what he was talking about and Paul’s letters need to be understood by the magic word “grace “ rether than just read and taken on for what’s there in them


Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The term grace doesn’t omit our responsibility and what we are supposed to do what we do is going to determine our end

like Paul’s teaching there in case you missed this part

God Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”


The issue you have is with what Paul’s epistles actually say if one doesn’t cherry pick and avoid the rest
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#90
Wow. So then, one is saved by their lifestyle.
A person will be damned by their sinful lifestyle unless they repent.

But, just to be clear, could either of you explain how one "receives the new"? Sounds rather obtuse. Can anyone clear that up?
Pretty straightforward, actually...

John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

True belief and faith entails repentance and a willingness to change. One agrees to let God make him a new creature.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#91
FreeGrace2 said:
Wow. So then, one is saved by their lifestyle.
A person will be damned by their sinful lifestyle unless they repent.
Let's not play word games. I didnt'say "sinful lifestyle". I said simply "lifestsyle".

So, again, now that we've cleared that up (hopefully), do you believe that people are saved by a specific lifestyle?

True belief and faith entails repentance and a willingness to change.
Sure sounds like a lot of human "help" for God to save us, if you were correct.

The Greek word is real simple.

Acts 16:31 - "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.
HELPS Word-studies
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing).

If your definition were correct, then Paul's answer to the jailer was WAY OFF TRACK, doncha think?

First, Paul told the jailer what he MUST DO (to believe) to be saved. Then, with family present, he explained all that must be believed.

The Lord (Deity, Son of God), Jesus (full humanity) and Christ (Messiah). And that He died for their sins and saves those who believe in Him for it.

In the definition above, we see the word "entrust". This isn't "commitment". It means to trust something to someone else.

ie: I will entrust my family to your care while I am gone.

Or, speaking to Jesus Christ, "I will entrust the salvation of my soul to You."

Your definition is a corruption of the Greek word.

One agrees to let God make him a new creature.
I never agreed to let God change me. It is automatic. He makes every believer a new creature. Do you understand what that means, to be a new creature? It means a change from being dichotomous (body and soul) to trichotomous (body, soul and spirit).

Where do you think the indwelling Holy Spirit resides in the believer? His corrupted body/soul? No, in the regenerated human spirit.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#92
people are saved by a specific lifestyle?
People are saved by the Blood of Jesus when they yield their lives to Him. They must be willing to change.

Sure sounds like a lot of human "help" for God to save us,
It requires a choice.

Yes.

The Greek word is real simple.
The Gospel is real simple.

Acts 16:31 - "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".
Amen! (y)
Your definition is a corruption of the Greek word.
Your definition is a corruption of God's Word.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#94
FreeGrace2 said:
people are saved by a specific lifestyle?
People are saved by the Blood of Jesus when they yield their lives to Him. They must be willing to change.
Yielding one's life and bd willing to change all encompass a specific lifestyle. So I got your answer. Thanks.

btw, no one is saved "by the blood of Jesus". There are no verses that say this. Jesus died for everyone. So, if His death saves anyone, He has already saved everyone.

People are saved by entrusting their souls to Him for salvation. Nothing more.

FreeGrace2 said:
Your definition is a corruption of the Greek word.
Your definition is a corruption of God's Word.
So, you really mean that God used the Greek language to communicate the NT but made up His own definitions for the words??????
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#95
FreeGrace2 said:
I never agreed to let God change me.
:(
That explains a lot.
Well, it sure does on your end. Aren't you familiar with Paul's answer to the jailer? He never said anything about what you just said. He sure didn't tell the jailer to agree to let God change him.

It's not too late.

Come to Jesus today.
Don't be foolish. I placed my faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross when I was about 7 y/o.

If your view of how to be saved were biblical, how come the Bible never says that people need "to agree to let God change" them????
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,236
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#96
If repentance doesn't mean agreeing to change and be changed I'm at a loss as to what it means.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#97
If repentance doesn't mean agreeing to change and be changed I'm at a loss as to what it means.
It means to change your mind. Not just being agreeable to.

The change that is taught from the Bible is the change that God does TO the believer. He regenerates the dead human spirit where the indwelling Holy Spirit dwells. This change is automatic and occurs with every believer.

The change that most people thing about is a change in lifestyle. However, that change is not automatic, which is why the Bible commands that change.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,236
3,577
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#98
It means to change your mind. Not just being agreeable to.

The change that is taught from the Bible is the change that God does TO the believer. He regenerates the dead human spirit where the indwelling Holy Spirit dwells. This change is automatic and occurs with every believer.

The change that most people thing about is a change in lifestyle. However, that change is not automatic, which is why the Bible commands that change.
You seem to have a deep issue with the idea of agreeing to anything as far as your salvation is concerned. So be it. I don't know where it comes from nor do I want to know particularly.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#99
You seem to have a deep issue with the idea of agreeing to anything as far as your salvation is concerned. So be it. I don't know where it comes from nor do I want to know particularly.
Could you at least explain what you think my 'deep issue' is? I don't understand your first sentence. "agreeing to anything as far as your salvation is concerned"???? What does that mean?

Thanks.

I explained the Greek meaning of metanoeo. You are free to accept the lexical meaning or not.

The problem is that so many people seem to want to make "repent" a lifestyle change, as if that is required for salvation.

I do reject any notion of a works salvation system.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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Edify said:
BTW, "believing" is so much more than mere acceptance of God's plan.

Wow. So then, one is saved by their lifestyle. That is what you are agreeing to. Both of you.

But, just to be clear, could either of you explain how one "receives the new"? Sounds rather obtuse. Can anyone clear that up?

Thanks.
Such an easy question. I was surprised by the wrong answers you were given.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

You can't just decide to turn away from sin. There is no power within people to be able to. The power resides with the Lord Jesus.

When a person turns to the Lord Jesus that is when they are given the ability, the blessing of turning from sin.

So repenting of sin isn't changing your mind. Although that is a symptom. Repenting is turning to the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus is the one that changes your mind.


Which I think was what you were saying...


The simple answer to your question of 'how does one receive the new';
Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.