Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Phoneman-777]

I know that you Arminians are just so offended by the horrible sins of others. Do you have any grip on how many sins Jesus Christ died on the cross for? Your comments suggest that you do not.

So, a grace saved Christian who backslides and turns into an impenitent axe murderer, child rapist madman will still go to heaven, but with a lighter crown? Got it. I'm not about to continue a Bible discussion with anyone who hold such extremely unBiblical beliefs, but I'll finish this reponse.

Satan deceives the whole world. The deception is yours. Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish. Yet, you reject His teaching. So don't preach to me.

Yes, I see you leveling up to Universalism at any moment - good for you.

In fact, those who won't be rewarded will have NO crown, not an "empty" one.

Yes, that's very Biblical, right? SMH

Peter used "latter end" to refer to the believer's life after he "returns to a life of sin". iow, he will have a miserable life until the day he dies.

OK, I see my post went straight over your head and you missed the part about how the latter of them has to be worse than the "lost sinful condition" they were in at the beginning. No problem, hopefully others will see it.

Since I never ever said anything about this "empty crown" nonsense you've brought up, it is clear you don't have any scrutiny.

It just stands to reason that if your idea that sin results in fewer jewels in our heavnly crown, then the impenitent, child rapist axe murderer will saunter into heaven with an empty crown devoid of any jewels (and maybe try to steal some from his victims?)

It is you who fails to read line upon line, and precept upon precept. You don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. You claim to be a Christian but you REJECT what the Savior taught. You are hypocritical.

Keep it up! You're almost there! You'll soon be singing the praises of Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Stalin, Musolini, Idi Amin, Che Guerraro, Hitler, and the rest of those for whose sins Jesus died, right?

You have no idea what Paul wrote.

He wrote the "doers of the law shall be justified in His sight" did he not?

OK, now find verses that show any condition for recipients of eternal life to obey in order to never perish.

Why don't you simply believe Jesus when He says "IF you continue in My word, THEN are ye My disciples indeed"? Ah, I see...because since that doesn't line up with OSAS, we'll just ignore it, right?

This sentence shows that you can't deny what Jesus taught in John 10:28, but you continue to believe that there are MORE verses that teach the opposite. You call me "inconsistent" but your ideas are even worse than just being inconsistent. Your ideas lead to the Bible being CONTRADICTED. But your view is too biased to even realize that.

But FREEGRACE2 !!! It says Jesus "for the sins of the WHOLE world! which means EVERYONE will be saved and NO ONE will go to hell! Sin all you want, brother!

O please...as if the master isn't representative of God, the servant a sinner, his impossible monetary debt our impossible sin debt, his fellowservant the members of our human family, etc. Just admit the servant walked out forgiven, but had his forgiveness REVOKED because he refused to allow his character to be made in the image of his kind, forgiving master.

What Jesus said in John 10:28 needs no "other verses" to interpret it. What a nonsense idea.

1 John 2:2, FreeGrace2 --- everybody's saved and nobody's going to hell, says so right there, no other way to see it!!

Jesus was clear. But you just can't stand it, so you have to force other verses to neutralize what He said in John 10:28. In essence, that is just trying to pervert the Word. Or twisting it to make it out to say what you want it to say.

Fact: you have NO verses that plainly say that salvation can be lost.
I, otoh, have verses that plainly say that believers shall never perish.

Don't tell us we have to "believe" because 1 John 2:2 says Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD including axe murdering child rapists and Democrats, FreeGrace2!

Maybe you should get on your knees and ask God to pry open those superglued eyelids shut so YOU can finally see the truth. Jesus gives eternal life to people WHEN they become believers. John 5:24. Or, prove from that verse that Jesus said/meant something else. Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28. Or, prove from that verse that Jesus said/meant something else. your turn

Nah, I'm done. Anyone foolish enough to think impenitent axe murdering child rapist Democrat backslidden "Christians" are bound for heaven with blood still dripping from the blade is not someone I want to try and reason with - OSAS has warped your reasoning, seemingly irreparably. May God's Spirit reach down through layer after layer of satanic deception and get through to you while there's still time.

 

[Phoneman-777]

We happily rest in faith knowing Jesus kept the whole law with perfect agape.

I don't think that's what John says. I'll look it up:

"For this is the "agape" of God, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS and His commandments are not grievous".

See? That word "keep" is in the PRESENT PERFECT TENSE which indicates it's not referring to something past, but something actively ongoing in the present - the question is, how can it be on going in the lives of those who think we can ignore God's commandments?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Well....by your standard the repentant thief on the cross is both the most advantaged yet most decrepit of all Christians. He demonstrated ZERO works and ZERO growth and fruitfulness. And at the same time paradoxically ZERO failings to resist temptations post-salvation.

So what do we have here? A dead heat?

The thief didn't get baptized either...which is why Jesus was - on behalf of all those who couldn't be.

But, I ask you, do you think if that thief were to suddenly have been pardoned, he would have come down off that cross and brought forth many good works? Sure he would! It's the evidence of a Christ filled heart, and conversely, disobedience is evidence of a heart full of the devil - isn't that what 1 John 2:3-4 KJV says? If not, please explain to us.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The early Church met on the first day of the week. Were they all doomed reprobate sinners because of this supposed error?

There ain't a single Sunday morning service in all of Scripture. It does say they met over and over on Sabbath, right or wrong?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Well....Paul must be in deep trouble here....
Rom 7:25 - I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Notwithstanding the abovementioned...

Rom 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:13 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Phl 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:[/QUOTE] Not sure what you're point is here, can you please elaborate?

 

[cv5]

There ain't a single Sunday morning service in all of Scripture. It does say they met over and over on Sabbath, right or wrong?

On the contrary there is never any Saturday gathering of Christians for fellowship & worship mentioned in the Bible.

At any rate we are to rest in the Lord every day and likewise worship in the Lord every day.

 

[Inquisitor]

It is in the law, in Deuteronomy 6:5 KJV. That's why the Two New aren't "new in existence", but "new in concept" to rigid, unmerciful Jews which Christ was trying to convert.
By this, you are essentially saying God promised a Messiah but left the decision to believe or not believe in Him up to the individual.
Then you have a problem with Jesus who said "not one jot or tittle shall in any wise pass from the law until all is fulfilled"; you have a problem with James who said the "doers of the law shall be justified"; you have a problem with Paul who said "he that doeth righteousness is righteous"; you have a problem with John who said "he that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar".

Why do people have a problem with the Biblical notion that obedience to the Ten Commandments is merely evidence Jesus is enthroned in the heart keeping them for us who can't keep them ourselves?

Because they don't want to accept the truth that disregarding them is evidence He's nowhere to be found.

The name of Jesus was unknown to the Jews before the first century. The sacrifice for sins was unknown to the Jews. Only God's promise of the messiah was known to the Jews in the first century.

The law exists in full force until all the law is fulfilled.

Tell me truthfully Phoneman.

You can't tell the difference between the two commandments below.

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor hold any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

John 13:34
I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

The first commandment is to love others as you love yourself, a weak, conditional commandment.

The second commandment is to love others as Christ has loved you, unconditional, divine love.

You are unable to see that these two commandments are a world apart. One is love from the flesh and the other is divine love, unconditional love.

The first commandment is the shadow commandment concerning loving others. The first commandment will grant you the knowledge of sin only. You cannot love your neighbor in your own strength, as an act of will, be honest with yourself.

The second commandment is the fulfillment of the first commandment. The second commandment is empowered by the Holy Spirit and love is a direct gift of the Holy Spirit. God wills His love through you by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Am I to understand that you are unable to see the fulfillment of the law?

Jesus did not fully fulfill the law?

 

[Inquisitor]

Well....Paul must be in deep trouble here....
Rom 7:25 - I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Notwithstanding the abovementioned...

Rom 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:13 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Phl 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Not sure what you're point is here, can you please elaborate?[/QUOTE]Read Romans chapter seven again.

Romans 7:24-25
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

The law did it's job. Paul had been granted the knowledge of sin. Paul was dead in his sin.

That is all the law can do, grant you the knowledge that you remain dead in your sin.

The law has no other use, that is all the law does.

You can think of any commandment in the law and it's wonderful. But your flesh will powerfully oppose any commandment, any spiritual directive. You will constantly resist all the commandments. Your a sinner, now confess.

 

[Inquisitor]

Well let me ask you this: Are all Christian males to be circumcised? This being THE preeminent necessity required by the law of Moses.

Please back up your position with NT Scripture.

They are only circumcised if they wish to be under the law.

If they attempt to follow the law, then they are commanded to be circumcised.

 

[crossnote]

Then Holy Spirit help David repent and transform into godly man

Yes, that’s been my point all along.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1 john 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

To be save must have faith, mean love God you can't say have faith but hate Jesus
If you say you have faith but hate other you are liar, you don't have faith and not save

You are perverting the verse. Do you love Jesus WHEN you reject what He says so clearly?
Do you love Jesus when you sin?

It is about salvation not only reward like you church say, it is salvation

Your unbiblical opinions are refuted directly by Jesus Himself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And this shows that YOU don't even believe John 5:24, where Jesus said believers possess eternal life.

You twist this verse like what you want
Eternal salvation after Matt 24:13

Since you reject what John 5:24 says, are you loving Jesus?

You can't even explain what Jesus said that supports your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So, that's what you call "erroneous platitudes" huh. Magenta was quoting verses (Eph 2:8,9). Did you not realize that?

It IS an erroneous platitude to suggest that since Christ is our rest, we can now break the Sabbath - as ludicrous as claiming since Jesus is our truth, we can now lie.

The Sabbath is the 7th day. That is Saturday.

How does one break Saturday? Are you SDA?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Matt 25 :34 - 41 is not about reward
Read 100 time
On those verses Jesus tell how He decide people go to heaven or eternal fire/ hell
Not still go to heaven but less diamond in their crown

John 5:24 and 10:28 ARE about salvation, which is guaranteed secure, as Jesus clearly communicated.

Are you loving Jesus when you blatantly reject what He said?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I remember in my bible study, my pastor say the last judgement is only decide reward not decide heaven or hell

So you reject both Jesus and your pastor. How can you love either one when you reject what they say?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then Holy Spirit help David repent and transform into godly man

Right. Way before he raped Bathsheba and murdered her husband.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I know that you Arminians are just so offended by the horrible sins of others. Do you have any grip on how many sins Jesus Christ died on the cross for? Your comments suggest that you do not.

So, a grace saved Christian who backslides and turns into an impenitent axe murderer, child rapist madman will still go to heaven, but with a lighter crown? Got it.

No, you don't "got it". You didn't even answer my question about how many sins Jesus died for? Why do you avoid that question?

You guys keep bringing up the sins that offend you so much, as if those sins will keep people out of heaven.

I'm not about to continue a Bible discussion with anyone who hold such extremely unBiblical beliefs, but I'll finish this reponse.

You're the one with extremely unbiblical views, as if there are certain sins that Jesus didn't die for.

Yes, I see you leveling up to Universalism at any moment - good for you.

That couldn't be more idiotic. I fully believe Rev 20;11-15 and I believe that more people will end up in the lake of fire than saved.

 

[Phoneman-777]

On the contrary there is never any Saturday gathering of Christians for fellowship & worship mentioned in the Bible.

Acts 13:42-44 KJV says the Gentiles did. They met on Sabbath with Jew converts and almost the entire city to hear Paul preach the Gospel and Paul told them to "continue in grace" which means they were partakers of grace - so anyone who accuses Sabbath keeping Christians today of having "fallen from grace" is a false accuser. We are "continuing in grace" as did those Gentiles of old.

At any rate we are to rest in the Lord every day and likewise worship in the Lord every day.

The commandment says the first six days we are to WORK and rest on the Sabbath, so if a person is resting every day from work, he's not holy, he's LAZY.

Besides, man can't make anything holy - God makes it holy and then tells us to KEEP it holy. If I asked you to keep my fireplace burning while I'm gone, and you come over and find it cold and dark, how can you "keep" it burning when no fire has been started? Likewise, you and I can't keep Sunday or anything else holy without God first making it holy.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The name of Jesus was unknown to the Jews before the first century. The sacrifice for sins was unknown to the Jews. Only God's promise of the messiah was known to the Jews in the first century.

I had to stop you right here: Jesus said Abraham "saw My day and was glad in it" on Mount Moriah when he understood what God would do for fallen humanity in that He would "provide for Himself a lamb" - though the Jews tried to conceal it and point the people to themselves the same way the Papacy concealed it and pointed Christians to their miserable, hopeless, faith-killing Antichrist system, the truth can never be fully obscured.

Good gravy, man, Isaiah was called "the Gospel prophet" because he wrote so much about Jesus, and Daniel pinpointed the very TIMING of Messiah's arrival, yet this is your position?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Inquisitor, you've incorrectly formatted reply #1808 where you have "Phoneman-777 said:" and what follows are not my words. Please format it correctly and repost.