Not By Works

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wattie

wattie

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BillG said:
Does not fruit lead to works?
I agree it's as a result of the Holy Spirit working in us, as we ask him to.

A saved person is not saved by their works.
A unsaved person is not saved by their works either.

Both of the above can produce the same works out of pure love but only one is saved.

The fact is that both do good works.
Click to expand...
I guess what I am saying is.. if someone sees someone that claims to be saved .. and isn't exhibiting good works.. often they go to the 'never saved in the first place' line.

This is really something that could be less visible. The fruit from being saved may have been obvious earlier.. and they got caught up in weeds or something like that.. eg.. distracted by the worldly ways. I don't think it is fair to go to the 'never saved in the first place' line.. unless it is obvious they just were never genuine. Good works aren't a guarantee.
 
BillG

BillG

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wattie said:
I guess what I am saying is.. if someone sees someone that claims to be saved .. and isn't exhibiting good works.. often they go to the 'never saved in the first place' line.

This is really something that could be less visible. The fruit from being saved may have been obvious earlier.. and they got caught up in weeds or something like that.. eg.. distracted by the worldly ways. I don't think it is fair to go to the 'never saved in the first place' line.. unless it is obvious they just were never genuine. Good works aren't a guarantee.
Click to expand...
Can't say I disagree with the above.

I believe that someone can get caught up in the weeds and still be saved, based on faith in and upon Jesus for salvation.
Said person will want to be like Jesus even when they struggle.

It's faith and not good works full stop.
 
J

Jackson123

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BillG said:
Can't say I disagree with the above.

I believe that someone can get caught up in the weeds and still be saved, based on faith in and upon Jesus for salvation.
Said person will want to be like Jesus even when they struggle.

It's faith and not good works full stop.
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As far as I know, when you have faith in Jesus you have love.
Because Jesus is love
Love is in your heart other human may not see it
I read on the news that ex Muslim now Christian preacher Mohammad Kc in jail, he was preach on YouTube at night and doing mechanic for living
Muslim accused him as betray to his old religion, they bite him 3 time unconscious and sentence 10 years in prison
I fell sympathy out of Jesus in my heart that is fruit
Is fruit require sending money? If we have yes if not no and still consider fruit
I am not sending money because
1 I myself low income from my small ssi
2 a lot of rich Christian help his family so they have more than enough

So fruit is love it may translate into action or only in our heart still fruit
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Jackson123 said:
As far as I know, when you have faith in Jesus you have love.
Because Jesus is love
Love is in your heart other human may not see it
Click to expand...
consider Job, who fought against the angels who came to save him, every step of the way, hesitating, contradicting them, wanting something other than what they told him.
Job is called righteous because his soul was vexed by what he witnessed in Sodom every day

did he change Sodom? no.
did he leave Sodom? not willingly.
did he flee to the mountains as he was commanded? no. he asked to stay in the wicked plain.

he didn't engage in the things Sodom did - and he tried to keep strangers away from it, sitting at the gate.
but where are Job's works?? none to speak of in scripture.
yet he is called righteous, because sin bothered him.

he loved the stranger, trying to warn them away from staying in the city square. that was enough.
 
J

Jackson123

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posthuman said:
consider Job, who fought against the angels who came to save him, every step of the way, hesitating, contradicting them, wanting something other than what they told him.
Job is called righteous because his soul was vexed by what he witnessed in Sodom every day

did he change Sodom? no.
did he leave Sodom? not willingly.
did he flee to the mountains as he was commanded? no. he asked to stay in the wicked plain.

he didn't engage in the things Sodom did - and he tried to keep strangers away from it, sitting at the gate.
but where are Job's works?? none to speak of in scripture.
yet he is called righteous, because sin bothered him.

he loved the stranger, trying to warn them away from staying in the city square. that was enough.
Click to expand...
Yep the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love
It may seen by other human as a helping other in need, it may not seen by other human because this loving hearth owner himself low income
As long as he have love in his heart, no matter it's translate into action or not it is fruit and Jesus say it is enough I understand your situation you are not being cut
Though you helping the needy but out of pride, that is not fruit of the Holy Spirit
Not by work in the sense tangible action, by faith, what is not seen by other human
Faith my translate by action my not depend on situation
But faith mean believe all His teaching
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Jackson123 said:
Yep the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love
It may seen by other human as a helping other in need, it may not seen by other human because this loving hearth owner himself low income
As long as he have love in his heart, no matter it's translate into action or not it is fruit and Jesus say it is enough I understand your situation you are not being cut
Though you helping the needy but out of pride, that is not fruit of the Holy Spirit
Not by work in the sense tangible action, by faith, what is not seen by other human
Faith my translate by action my not depend on situation
But faith mean believe all His teaching
Click to expand...
Maybe no one sees it.
But God sees - so we should not judge people.
We can judge actions, and we can judge doctrine, comparing with scripture - but only God sees our hearts, and in our hearts is where faith and hope and love are
 
J

Jackson123

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posthuman said:
Maybe no one sees it.
But God sees - so we should not judge people.
We can judge actions, and we can judge doctrine, comparing with scripture - but only God sees our hearts, and in our hearts is where faith and hope and love are
Click to expand...
We can't see what is in other heart but if that man state, say it publicly than we see it
We can compare what they believe with what Bible teach
If we know His believe is not what bible teach, than out of love we must tell him, show the verse that not agree with his believe
They may agree may not, nothing we can do as long as we do it out of love it is fruit
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Jackson123 said:
We can't see what is in other heart but if that man state, say it publicly than we see it
We can compare what they believe with what Bible teach
If we know His believe is not what bible teach, than out of love we must tell him, show the verse that not agree with his believe
They may agree may not, nothing we can do as long as we do it out of love it is fruit
Click to expand...
Yes out of the depths of a man's heart, he speaks

Amen

May God put the holy coal to our tongues
May we speak His Word
Healing fire, healing Word
 
Chester

Chester

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BillG said:
Does not fruit lead to works?
I agree it's as a result of the Holy Spirit working in us, as we ask him to.

A saved person is not saved by their works.
A unsaved person is not saved by their works either.

Both of the above can produce the same works out of pure love but only one is saved.

The fact is that both do good works.
Click to expand...
I guess it depends how one defines "good works".
I would say that good works can only be produced by a believer. And definitely an unbeliever cannot produce works out of love (agape). Only Jesus is love and any other motivation than coming from Christ is not coming from agape (love).

All and anything an unbeliever can do may look good and even come from good moral values, but it is still all filthy rags. And anything a believer does that is not coming from Christ (love) within is also filthy rags. We are his workmanship, created unto good works . . . (Eph. 2:10)
 
J

Jackson123

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Chester said:
I guess it depends how one defines "good works".
I would say that good works can only be produced by a believer. And definitely an unbeliever cannot produce works out of love (agape). Only Jesus is love and any other motivation than coming from Christ is not coming from agape (love).

All and anything an unbeliever can do may look good and even come from good moral values, but it is still all filthy rags. And anything a believer does that is not coming from Christ (love) within is also filthy rags. We are his workmanship, created unto good works . . . (Eph. 2:10)
Click to expand...
To me, good work is only produce by jesus
Believer not producer, only bearer
It you abide in Me you will bear fruit, not produce, bear
Apart from me you can do nothing
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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wattie said:
I have an issue with a saved person WILL do good works. I know there WILL be fruit from being saved.. patience, kindness, self control.. etc.. that is the result of the Holy Spirit being in someones spirit.. but good works don't automatically happen.. the believer has to rely on the Holy Spirit.

Guess it is the fruit vs works thing. I suppose you could say they are the same thing.. but the fruit are not necessarily outwardly visible works.
Click to expand...
I believe when you trust someone. You tend to do things they desire, because you trust them.

It does not mean you will be a superchristian. But there will be a change,

If you don't do anything they desire. do you really trust them? Or are you just speaking words which are not true.

I have seen addicts who came to CHrist. before they wanted nothing but to continue their addiction. After, even though many still struggled. Their attitude changed. they confessed their addiction and their struggle. and sought help. The HS was working in them.. Many found healing and never struggled again. Some struggled the rest of their lives they would have good time, but then fall off the wagon and have to start over. But I believe both were just as saved.

The non believer would coontinue the way he or she was with no remorse. no sorrow and probably no struggle..
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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BillG said:
Does not fruit lead to works?
I agree it's as a result of the Holy Spirit working in us, as we ask him to.

A saved person is not saved by their works.
A unsaved person is not saved by their works either.

Both of the above can produce the same works out of pure love but only one is saved.

The fact is that both do good works.
Click to expand...
Thats why James word was directed to the person. Examine yourself. if you cl;aim to have faith but have no work, is it real

And pauls words were directed to the religious, Who had works, but in order to save themselves..
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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wattie said:
I guess what I am saying is.. if someone sees someone that claims to be saved .. and isn't exhibiting good works.. often they go to the 'never saved in the first place' line.
Click to expand...
Yes, we are not supposed to be fruit inspectors. And that is not what James is saying. I agree 100 %

This is really something that could be less visible. The fruit from being saved may have been obvious earlier.. and they got caught up in weeds or something like that.. eg.. distracted by the worldly ways. I don't think it is fair to go to the 'never saved in the first place' line.. unless it is obvious they just were never genuine. Good works aren't a guarantee.
Click to expand...
amen sis
 
BillG

BillG

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Chester said:
I guess it depends how one defines "good works".
I would say that good works can only be produced by a believer. And definitely an unbeliever cannot produce works out of love (agape). Only Jesus is love and any other motivation than coming from Christ is not coming from agape (love).

All and anything an unbeliever can do may look good and even come from good moral values, but it is still all filthy rags. And anything a believer does that is not coming from Christ (love) within is also filthy rags. We are his workmanship, created unto good works . . . (Eph. 2:10)
Click to expand...
Hi.

Interesting point concerning his one defines good works.

Is it what people do and dont do in order to benefit someone else whether Christian or not?

Either could do works of some description for the benefit of someone else without wanting anything in return.

I have seen others say the an unbeliever cannot produce works out love (agape).
Is not agape an "unconditional love that expects nothing in return?
It is not a love of emotion or feeling but an act of the will for the higher good for someone.

So what perplexes me concerning what you say and others that an unbeliever cannot manifest this agape for others because they are not believers.

Cannot unbelievers do things out of agape love without wanting anything in return?

If as a believer I put food in a trolley to help feed those who cannot put food on the table because I don't want people to go hungry and someone else does the same.

We spend our own money, the recipient in this scenario (which is true) does not know who paid for the food.

I am a believer, the other is not.

Is what we done an aspect of Agape?

If so then an unbeliever has walked in agape love?
If not then what was the type of love we expressed?

I am not having a go here just trying to understand why some think this way.
 
P

Polar

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posthuman said:
consider Job, who fought against the angels who came to save him, every step of the way, hesitating, contradicting them, wanting something other than what they told him.
Job is called righteous because his soul was vexed by what he witnessed in Sodom every day

did he change Sodom? no.
did he leave Sodom? not willingly.
did he flee to the mountains as he was commanded? no. he asked to stay in the wicked plain.

he didn't engage in the things Sodom did - and he tried to keep strangers away from it, sitting at the gate.
but where are Job's works?? none to speak of in scripture.
yet he is called righteous, because sin bothered him.

he loved the stranger, trying to warn them away from staying in the city square. that was enough.
Click to expand...

I think you mean Lot? but good observations
 
Rosemaryx

Rosemaryx

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Everlasting-Grace said:
I believe when you trust someone. You tend to do things they desire, because you trust them.

It does not mean you will be a superchristian. But there will be a change,

If you don't do anything they desire. do you really trust them? Or are you just speaking words which are not true.

I have seen addicts who came to CHrist. before they wanted nothing but to continue their addiction. After, even though many still struggled. Their attitude changed. they confessed their addiction and their struggle. and sought help. The HS was working in them.. Many found healing and never struggled again. Some struggled the rest of their lives they would have good time, but then fall off the wagon and have to start over. But I believe both were just as saved.

The non believer would coontinue the way he or she was with no remorse. no sorrow and probably no struggle..
Click to expand...
I agree with this because I can relate...
I used to drink , was a drunk when God called me...
I was into my Christian walk three years before I could see what the Holy Spirit was doing in me...
My desire to stop drinking was so strong , but I kept failing , but my drinking was becoming less and less in the times I would give into it...
The Lord delivered me from all alcohol four years ago , today I am clean and sober...
He could of delivered me from drink right away , but then I would never of known His goodness , kindness and mercy through my great struggle...
All the glory to Him I say Amen...
...xox...
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Phoneman-777 said:
The weekly Sabbath's reason for creation is right there in the Bible: a memorial to Creation, not a shadow of anything. It says God made the Sabbath because He rested from creating everything the first six days.

Again, the only "sabbath" that can be a shadow of Christ's work of redemption are the yearly feast day sabbaths, which shadows stretched all the way back from the Cross (and beyond) to Genesis 3:15 KJV, the way of escape from man's death sentence under which sin cast him by the gold of Jesus' blood and the silver of His tears. The weekly Sabbath had already come into existence BEFORE GENESIS 3:15 KJV.
Click to expand...
Exodus 31:12-17 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying:
‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations,
that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it
is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it,
that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is
the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put
to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their
generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six
days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’
 
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