Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Inquisitor]

If you love God, you'll keep the first four, and if you love your neighbor, the last six. The Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross, while the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness". That's Psalms 111:7-8 KJV talking about the law made with God's own hands, not what Moses wrote with his.

I don't know if anyone has ever told you, the ten commandments are the law.

Exodus 20:2
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

God did not lead the Gentile nations out of that Gentile nation called Egypt.

The first commandment does not apply to any Gentile nation, and especially not to Egypt.

Talk about a dubious reading of Psalm 111:7-8. That is talking about all of God's handiwork. Nowhere does that verse mention the ten commandments.

Moses only wrote what God commanded him to write.

You cannot throw virtually the entire legal system of the Old Testament in the bin, and hang on to ten of the laws. That is a profound mistake your making.

 

[Inquisitor]

I think I well understand what "establish the law" means.

A law is either respected and obeyed or ignored and discarded. Those who respect and obey establish it, while those who ignore and discard it make it void.

"Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, yea, we establish the law" means "do we ignore the law because we claim to have faith? No, we are faithful to obey it."

Isn't that what James says? "..show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works".

Well that post did not make sense.

James is talking about works, i.e., feeding the hungry person standing next to you in church.

What has that got to do with the law?

I don't believe you put those two words together, 'respect and obey', the law.

Did the history of the Jewish nation tell you anything at all?

No one can obey the law, absolutely no one.

All the law can do is notify you that you are a transgressor. Do you understand this or not?

When you try and obey any written law, you should be aware of your great sinfulness. That is all the law can do.

The law is weak and useless when it comes to doing the right thing.

 

[gb9]

I'll ask again: Reading the rest of Romans allows us to take "not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law shall be justified in His sight" and restate it as "whether you're a hearer only, or a hearer and doer, it's all good"???

i will answer you again- one sentence out of a letter has to be balanced and interpreted with the rest of the letter.

 

[posthuman]

So, you're going to ignore the line of reasoning which destroys the idea that we can break the Sabbath commandment to rest on the seventh day the moment He becomes our rest when we invite Him into our heart?

Again, if accepting Jesus as our rest means we can break the Sabbath commandment, does the fact that Jesus is our truth mean we can now lie?

If He is our reward, can we now steal?

Will you and Magenta admit this line of reasoning is no basis at all for willfully sinning against Jesus by refusing to obey what He wrote with His own finger in stone?

here you go again falsely accusing people, simply on the basis that i quoted the Bible.

interesting behaviour.

 

[Jackson123]

I'm not sure what your sentence means. Could you please re-phrase. I can't figure out what "listing salvation builder" means.

No in Corinthian the builder not losing his salvation only losing reward, not thrown into fire
But in john 15:6 the branch that not bear fruit thrown into fire or hell

 

[Phoneman-777]

FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, when someone comes to verses that "say the opposite" of other verses, shows that they fail to properly understand either one or both of the verses.

Can you cite anyone who has really said all this? I sure don't accept that statement and I'm a very strong proponent of eternal security.

Alright, here's your opportunity to prove me wrong, and I've made it so simple even a child can answer:

1. He that does righteousness is righteous and he that does not righteousness is not righteous.
2. He that does righteousness is righteous and he that does not righteousness is also righteous.

1. The doers of the law shall be justified in His sight and those who refuse to do are not justified in His sight.
2. The doers of the law shall be justified in His sight and those who refuse to do are also justified in His sight.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Phoneman-777]

I don't know if anyone has ever told you, the ten commandments are the law.
Exodus 20:2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

God did not lead the Gentile nations out of that Gentile nation called Egypt. The first commandment does not apply to any Gentile nation, and especially not to Egypt.

Did not God lead "the mixed multitude" out of the land of Egypt which were comprised of Gentiles? They were not exempt from keeping the Ten Commandments. God also expected "the stranger that is within thy gates" to keep the Sabbath. Also, Gentiles were able to "take hold of my covenant" and keep the Sabbath "from polluting it". It is simply wrong to claim only Israel was expected to keep the Ten Commandments. Conversely, God wanted the Israelites to take His message and His ways to ALL NATIONS, that they would turn from Satan worship to the worship of the one true God, Himself.

Talk about a dubious reading of Psalm 111:7-8. That is talking about all of God's handiwork. Nowhere does that verse mention the ten commandments.

Dubious? Do you realize the only thing that qualifies "the works of His hands" and "His commandments" and "truth" ("verity") are the Ten Commandments which He made with His own hands which are "truth" according to Psalm 119:142-151 KJV? Only the stubborn will deny this as "dubious". Proof? Circumcision is long gone but stealing, adultery, and worshiping Satan will ALWAYS be wrong, right or wrong?

Moses only wrote what God commanded him to write.

So, you're just going to ignore the part that God didn't even trust a man to write so He wrote it Himself on two tables of stone for him so that there would be no subsequent copy errors by him? There are several clear Biblical distinctions between the Mosaic Law and the Moral Law of Ten Commandments and it's time "Christians" stop shutting their eyes and stopping their ears to them because it throws cold water on their warm and fuzzy religious bulldookey dunghill of false doctrines.

You cannot throw virtually the entire legal system of the Old Testament in the bin, and hang on to ten of the laws. That is a profound mistake your making.

What mistake? Which of the Mosaic laws are we still required to obey? Circumcision? Bring a lamb for sacrifice?

Now, which of the Ten Commandments is the Christian at liberty to break? Theft? Adultery? Murder?James tells you that if you don't murder but you commit adultery "thou art become a transgressor of the law" and he wasn't talking to Jews, he was talking to CHRISTIANS.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Well that post did not make sense.

James is talking about works, i.e., feeding the hungry person standing next to you in church.

What has that got to do with the law?

Did you miss the part where James said, "If thou commit no adultery, yet thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law"? Yes, a transgressor of the TEN COMMANDMENTS. Notice, James DID NOT SAY you're a transgressor of the law if you don't get circumcised or fail to bring a lamb to slaughter, because he knew the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross 30 years ago but the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever and are done in truth and uprightness".

 

[Goliath]

it has nothing to do with what I want. It has everything to do with what actually happened.

You have paul going out telling a different gospel.. Then judging others for being accursed if they teach a different gospel. Which makes Paul not only a false teacher, But makes the largest part of the NT unreliable..

Excuse me, but you may have that backwards.
I have never said, Paul taught a Salvation gospel different from the one Jesus taught. What I said was, the teachings of Salvation originated from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many people believe Paul taught a different Salvation Gospel to the Gentiles, different from the one Jesus taught to his disciples.
If you believe as they do, and I don't know if you do, you are the ones who teach that foolishness.

Jesus came to Paul...Paul did not come to Jesus.
Why did Jesus come to Paul? Do you think it was because he thought Paul was a better teacher than his disciples? The following are facts...I received years ago through the Holy Spirit. You are free to believe or not..the choice is yours.

Jesus chose Paul for one reason, and one reason only. The reason he chose Paul, was because Paul was a well respected teacher in the Jewish community. In other words...Paul was a shepherd to the Jews. And where the shepherd goes,.....the sheep will follow.
Now why he chose Paul over all of the other teachers, is a different reason, which I will not share unless someone really wants to know.

Why do the teachings of Paul sound different from the other teachers?
Paul taught Salvation, but he also taught Grace. What is the focus in the Church today?
It is Grace. Notice...Jesus never even mentioned the word anywhere in his Gospel.

 

[Phoneman-777]

i will answer you again- one sentence out of a letter has to be balanced and interpreted with the rest of the letter.

I hate backing people up against the wall, because you never know if they'll concede and repent or harden their heart and refuse to answer, as you do here.

 

[Phoneman-777]

here you go again falsely accusing people, simply on the basis that i quoted the Bible.

interesting behaviour.

Here you go again, confusing what's true and false by virtue of your total lack of understanding of Scripture. We expect nothing less from one who claims the wicked can partake of God's "agape" love when:

• 1 John 5:3 KJV says "agape" love is only demonstrated by happily keeping God's commandments
• Romans 8:7 KJV says the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to

Seriously, don't you ever get tired of all the theological spankings you keep getting from us?

 

[Phoneman-777]

No in Corinthian the builder not losing his salvation only losing reward, not thrown into fire
But in john 15:6 the branch that not bear fruit thrown into fire or hell

So true. These two verses are not talking about the same thing - the one is talking about the differing outcomes of a saint's efforts while the other is talking about a former saint who has turned from serving God and will be cast into hellfire.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Excuse me, but you may have that backwards.
I have never said, Paul taught a Salvation gospel different from the one Jesus taught. What I said was, the teachings of Salvation originated from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many people believe Paul taught a different Salvation Gospel to the Gentiles, different from the one Jesus taught to his disciples.
If you believe as they do, and I don't know if you do, you are the ones who teach that foolishness.

Jesus came to Paul...Paul did not come to Jesus.
Why did Jesus come to Paul? Do you think it was because he thought Paul was a better teacher than his disciples? The following are facts...I received years ago through the Holy Spirit. You are free to believe or not..the choice is yours.

Jesus chose Paul for one reason, and one reason only. The reason he chose Paul, was because Paul was a well respected teacher in the Jewish community. In other words...Paul was a shepherd to the Jews. And where the shepherd goes,.....the sheep will follow.
Now why he chose Paul over all of the other teachers, is a different reason, which I will not share unless someone really wants to know.

Why do the teachings of Paul sound different from the other teachers?
Paul taught Salvation, but he also taught Grace. What is the focus in the Church today?
It is Grace. Notice...Jesus never even mentioned the word anywhere in his Gospel.

just stop. Your hurting yourself

Jesus taught grace. He did nto have to mention it. Grace and love and mercy is the theme of the Bible. It started in the garden, when God kieed an animal to cover the nakedness of adam and eve

I can;t help you my friend, You think you are something you are not.. As you said, Paul taught the gospel. Grace is the gospel. You are saved (if you are) because of Gods mercy and grace. The tax collector went home justified because he called out to Jesus. Tats a picture of grace..

The pharisee, who also like you, thought he was sinless, did not. Because of his pride. In rejecting grace,

 

[Phoneman-777]

just stop. Your hurting yourself

Jesus taught grace. He did nto have to mention it. Grace and love and mercy is the theme of the Bible. It started in the garden, when God kieed an animal to cover the nakedness of adam and eve

I can;t help you my friend, You think you are something you are not.. As you said, Paul taught the gospel. Grace is the gospel. You are saved (if you are) because of Gods mercy and grace. The tax collector went home justified because he called out to Jesus. Tats a picture of grace. The pharisee, who also like you, thought he was sinless, did not. Because of his pride. In rejecting grace,

A Christian isn't one who never sins, but who never commits deliberate, known, habitual sin and fights to overcome it whenever the Holy Spirit reveals it, as per Scripture. The raison d'etre of OSAS is for those who want to cling to Jesus but also their deliberate, habitual, known sin from which they refuse to repent.

Show me an impenitent "Christian" alcohol addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" tobacco addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" anger addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" idolatrous music and movies addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" porn addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.

Can you see the unbreakable link between "impenitent" and "OSAS"?

 

[posthuman]

​

Here you go again, confusing what's true and false by virtue of your total lack of understanding of Scripture. We expect nothing less from one who claims the wicked can partake of God's "agape" love when:

• 1 John 5:3 KJV says "agape" love is only demonstrated by happily keeping God's commandments
• Romans 8:7 KJV says the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to

Seriously, don't you ever get tired of all the theological spankings you keep getting from us?

these are the facts:

i simply quoted this -

For he that is entered into His rest, [and he] rested of his works, as also God of His ​

(Hebrews 4:10, 1382 WYC)​

and you responded to it by accusing me of preaching a license to sin.
you did the same thing to @Magenta when she did nothing more than quote the same verse.

that's interesting. the portrayal of Christ as our true rest is a 'trigger' for you.
i wonder, since you boast in your sabbath-keeping, what in the world you think about on sabbath?
how cool you are for not doing anything today?
how evil everyone else is?

it's my opinion that on saturdays we ought to meditate on how that old covenant sign was a shadow of the true substance, which is Christ.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

A Christian isn't one who never sins, but who never commits deliberate, known, habitual sin and fights to overcome it whenever the Holy Spirit reveals it, as per Scripture. The raison d'etre of OSAS is for those who want to cling to Jesus but also their deliberate, habitual, known sin from which they refuse to repent.

Show me an impenitent "Christian" alcohol addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" tobacco addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" anger addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" idolatrous music and movies addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" porn addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.

Can you see the unbreakable link between "impenitent" and "OSAS"?

Yep as usual, there you go pumping your chest praising God you not like the sinner

your self righteousness wrecks man, you fit you name well..

 

[posthuman]

Show me an impenitent "Christian" alcohol addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" tobacco addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" anger addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" idolatrous music and movies addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.
Show me an impenitent "Christian" porn addict and I'll show you a OSAS believer.

show me a man with genuine faith and i'll show you a man who has assurance Christ will not fail to save him.
show me a man who believes salvation depends on the quality of his own earthly life and i'll show you someone who has not believed the gospel.

Can you see the unbreakable link between "impenitent" and "OSAS"?

can you see the unbreakable link between tusting in a righteousness by works of the law & unbelief?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

show me a man with genuine faith and i'll show you a man who has assurance Christ will not fail to save him.
show me a man who believes salvation depends on the quality of his own earthly life and i'll show you someone who has not believed the gospel.



can you see the unbreakable link between tusting in a righteousness by works of the law & unbelief?

Sadly, he seems himself as pure and holy and right by his own actions. Not by the blood of Christ.

His faith is in self and what he does. And not Christ and what he did

as for the promise of God? And eternal life? He, like the jew, wants conditional life. Gods promise is meaningless to them.And just like the pharisees. When you try to show this to him, he will attack you

 

[FreeGrace2]

No in Corinthian the builder not losing his salvation only losing reward, not thrown into fire
But in john 15:6 the branch that not bear fruit thrown into fire or hell

Seems you are just defining things the way you want.

The 11 disciples were saved, since Jesus told them they were clean. Believers who don't bear fruit will be disciplined, not cast into the lake of fire.

Please address John 5:24 and 10:28 and explain how they DON'T teach eternal security.

 

[Phoneman-777]

these are the facts: i simply quoted this - For he that is entered into His rest, [and he] rested of his works, as also God of His (Hebrews 4:10, 1382 WYC) and you responded to it by accusing me of preaching a license to sin. You did the same thing to @Magenta when she did nothing more than quote the same verse.

What a gross misrepresentation of the facts this guy has written. Folks, what happened was Magenta wrote "Jesus is our rest" in response to a discussion about commandments and Sabbath-keeping which she obviously intended to mean our rest in Christ allows us to disregard the commandment to rest on Sabbath (and Posthuman defended it), to which I asked, "Does the fact that Jesus is our truth allow us to lie, or that He is our reward allow us to rob banks?"

Neither Magenta or Posthuman were willing to admit their idea that Christ's rest allows us to disregard the Sabbath rest stands refuted by this, because the hallmark characteristic of the OSAS crowd is pride - this characteristic of Posthuman is also seen in his refusal to renounce his asinine idea that the wicked can partake of God's agape love after I showed him that 1 John 5:3 KJV says agape is only demonstrated by happily keeping God's commandments, but Romans 8:7 KJV says the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to.

that's interesting. the portrayal of Christ as our true rest is a 'trigger' for you.

No trigger at all, unlike the mere mention of the Ten Commandments which is enough to bring out the horns, fangs, and claws of all you who claim to have a corner on the market of grace and love.

since you boast in your sabbath-keeping

Oh please, pointing out false doctrine concerning the Sabbath on YOUR part doesn't constitute boasting on MY part.

how cool you are for not doing anything today?

Spending time with the Lord and the brethren and doing His will on the Sabbath is the coolest thing that can be done. You should give up your rebellion against Jesus and try it.

how evil everyone else is?

That's to be decided when we all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and I hope all who fight against the Sabbath do so in ignorance, but I have my suspicions as to who does presumptuously.

it's my opinion that on saturdays we ought to meditate on how that old covenant sign was a shadow of the true substance, which is Christ.

Let's be clear: when Exodus 20 mentions the blessing of the "Sabbath" it's not talking about a new blessing, but the same blessing God bestowed upon the 7th day way back in Creation Week - how do we know? Because 1 Chronicles 17:27 KJV says God's blessing are potent enough to last for eternity and don't need any booster shots.

The Old Covenant didn't come around until thousands of years later and was nailed to the Cross, but the weekly Sabbath "stands fast forever and ever" and is "done in truth and uprightness".