What is meant when people say 'guns don't kill people; people do'?

[ZNP]

After rereading your post, I see now what you probably meant.
Yes, if the barcodes were etched on the cases, that code could be tied to a sale.

Have you watched modern mfg of ammo? It is run in batches. Would you expect one barcode for the whole batch of thousands of rounds? If you insisted on a separate barcode for each box, you would shut down the ammo manufacturing business.

And, what about reloaders, like myself?

And, an easy way around that magic barcode? Revolvers.

I said already it isn't fool proof, it would probably work on 80% of crimes, particularly these inner city gang members who don't pick up their casings and don't make their own bullets.

As for the batches, I don't know. I suppose it could turn out that two or three people buy ammo with the same bar code in which case the police would have 3 suspects in a crime. I would expect anyone not involved with the crime would have an alibi, maybe even ironclad (if you use a credit card, if you can prove you were hundreds of miles away at the time, and if you have a cell phone on you with geo-tracking, or maybe you were at work at the time, etc. These gang members usually travel hundreds of miles out of the various cities to buy guns, so the odds that two different people who bought the same ammo would be in the same city at the same time is small. Not only so but the streets are filled with cameras that can confirm a person's alibi. Cars are being tracked, that could also confirm it.

 

[hornetguy]

I said already it isn't fool proof, it would probably work on 80% of crimes, particularly these inner city gang members who don't pick up their casings and don't make their own bullets.

As for the batches, I don't know. I suppose it could turn out that two or three people buy ammo with the same bar code in which case the police would have 3 suspects in a crime. I would expect anyone not involved with the crime would have an alibi, maybe even ironclad (if you use a credit card, if you can prove you were hundreds of miles away at the time, and if you have a cell phone on you with geo-tracking, or maybe you were at work at the time, etc. These gang members usually travel hundreds of miles out of the various cities to buy guns, so the odds that two different people who bought the same ammo would be in the same city at the same time is small. Not only so but the streets are filled with cameras that can confirm a person's alibi. Cars are being tracked, that could also confirm it.

Look.... I agree that "on paper" it sounds interesting... but there are more holes in it (no pun intended, of course) than can be answered at this time.
Like I said, ammo companies make ammo thousands, if not 10's of thousands at a time. Criminals likely buy ammo 50-100 at a time.
Unless ammo mfgs stop their production lines, change the entry for the barcode, then fire the line back up, which would absolutely cripple production, (not to mention making the cost of ammo skyrocket) you will have multiple thousands of rounds with the same barcode sent out to multiple distributors. Tracing one casing back to where it was purchased would be daunting, to say the very least.
To add another twist.... what if criminals don't buy their ammo.... what if they just steal it?

Your scenario would require every ammo purchaser to keep track of every cartridge he owns, or risk being arrested and convicted over a barcode....

I think your estimate of 80% of shootings being solved this way is very unrealistic.

 

[ZNP]

Look.... I agree that "on paper" it sounds interesting... but there are more holes in it (no pun intended, of course) than can be answered at this time.
Like I said, ammo companies make ammo thousands, if not 10's of thousands at a time. Criminals likely buy ammo 50-100 at a time.
Unless ammo mfgs stop their production lines, change the entry for the barcode, then fire the line back up, which would absolutely cripple production, (not to mention making the cost of ammo skyrocket) you will have multiple thousands of rounds with the same barcode sent out to multiple distributors. Tracing one casing back to where it was purchased would be daunting, to say the very least.
To add another twist.... what if criminals don't buy their ammo.... what if they just steal it?

Your scenario would require every ammo purchaser to keep track of every cartridge he owns, or risk being arrested and convicted over a barcode....

I think your estimate of 80% of shootings being solved this way is very unrealistic.

The machine that inscribes the bar code takes seconds, it is digital, therefore it can be designed to change every 100 and therefore everything in a box of ammunition could have the same code.

There is no "silver bullet" to this problem but there are many, many small steps that can be taken to improve the situation.

If you clamp down on inner city gangs getting guns and ammo you will be addressing the major portion of the problem.

Now even if you have an assassin who uses a bullet that doesn't have a bar code that also would help the cops know who they are looking for. If someone uses a home made bullet that would also help the police identify who the criminal is.

We have geo tracking on phones, that will probably work for the majority of criminals but some will be smart enough to not bring their phone. We have cameras all over the streets but again you will have that odd criminal who puts a phony license on his car. We have fingerprints, trace evidence, DNA, and a host of other tools to catch a criminal. If you make it easier for the cops to round up and convict 80% of the criminals then they'll have more time to investigate the professional killers.

 

[hornetguy]

The machine that inscribes the bar code takes seconds, it is digital, therefore it can be designed to change every 100 and therefore everything in a box of ammunition could have the same code.

If that is the case, it would not be as onerous as it first sounded.
There are still issues, that possibly could be addressed.... the reloading issue is still unclear. What about ammo re-manufacturers? Brass cases are the most expensive part of a cartridge, and many companies provide re-manufactured ammo. How would they remove the old barcode and put a new one on it?

I'm not sure that it would even stand up in court, unless you passed laws making it a felony to let someone else buy/have/borrow any of your ammo... and I don't think there would be a snowball's chance of passing a law like that.

"yes, your honor, I did buy that ammo, but I gave Jim-Bob half of the box, cause he was running out. I don't know WHAT he did with it".....
"yes, I did buy that ammo, but it was stolen out of my crib..."
Reasonable doubt, all the way down the line.

 

[ZNP]

I'm not sure that it would even stand up in court, unless you passed laws making it a felony to let someone else buy/have/borrow any of your ammo... and I don't think there would be a snowball's chance of passing a law like that.

"yes, your honor, I did buy that ammo, but I gave Jim-Bob half of the box, cause he was running out. I don't know WHAT he did with it".....
"yes, I did buy that ammo, but it was stolen out of my crib..."
Reasonable doubt, all the way down the line.

We already have laws against "mules". Yes, if you loaned half a box of ammo to Jim Bob and he wasn't a felon and you had no idea he would go and rob a bank I suspect you would be found innocent.

However, if you drove two hours from Chicago to buy 25 guns and 25,000 rounds of ammo which all then wound up in the hands of a gang in Chicago that will hold up in court.

 

[I_am_Canadian]

thank you....

Keeping on with this thread.... IF the legality of owning firearms is the cause of gun violence, then please explain how Mexico, our neighbor to the south, who is so strict on gun ownership.... (a citizen can only own one small caliber firearm (.22 rimfire), and it has to be justified, registered with the army, and kept in the house, not ever carried) had homicides totaling 34,515 in 2020, while the US, for 2020, had homicides totaling 24,576..... I believe this data includes all homicides, not only firearm....
How can this happen, especially with the US having nearly three times the population as Mexico....??

Are they killing each other with rocks? Bats? Knives? Does it matter??

You could say "well, it's all gang/drug cartel violence".... ok, perhaps, but does it make it any less dangerous?
The vast majority of our gun violence is metro-area gang/drug related, as well.

Your welcome,

See I dont think people get that, simply owning a gun doesnt cause gun violence, its the pot heads and crack addicts and gangsters that are the cause of it.

I mean most of those drugs cause long term permanent mental health issues, anger, violence, and other bad side effects

 

[hornetguy]

We already have laws against "mules". Yes, if you loaned half a box of ammo to Jim Bob and he wasn't a felon and you had no idea he would go and rob a bank I suspect you would be found innocent.

However, if you drove two hours from Chicago to buy 25 guns and 25,000 rounds of ammo which all then wound up in the hands of a gang in Chicago that will hold up in court.

I'm not talking about bulk buys... just one box. Unless it's a felony to EVER loan/give/sell/trade ammo to another person, then there will always be "reasonable doubt".....

 

[ZNP]

I'm not talking about bulk buys... just one box. Unless it's a felony to EVER loan/give/sell/trade ammo to another person, then there will always be "reasonable doubt".....

There is no silver bullet to solving crime. It is like a jigsaw puzzle with a thousand pieces. Even if you could solve every crime committed with a gun that would have nothing to do with crimes committed with a knife.

You have the Camel and the Gnat. A Chicago gang shooting and killing in the streets is the Camel, Jim Bob deciding when he is 40 years old that he always wanted to try his hand at robbing a bank is the gnat.

 

[hornetguy]

There is no silver bullet to solving crime. It is like a jigsaw puzzle with a thousand pieces. Even if you could solve every crime committed with a gun that would have nothing to do with crimes committed with a knife.

You have the Camel and the Gnat. A Chicago gang shooting and killing in the streets is the Camel, Jim Bob deciding when he is 40 years old that he always wanted to try his hand at robbing a bank is the gnat.

I agree... but the "anti-gun" crowd only sees "take away their guns"..... when my example of Mexico vs US proves that is not the answer.
If the "deciders" would approach the problem truly looking for fair solutions that will not deprive citizens of their rights, we'd probably come up with an answer.

 

[ZNP]

I agree... but the "anti-gun" crowd only sees "take away their guns"..... when my example of Mexico vs US proves that is not the answer.
If the "deciders" would approach the problem truly looking for fair solutions that will not deprive citizens of their rights, we'd probably come up with an answer.

These school shootings are false flags. The purpose is to manipulate people into giving away their guns and people have figured that out. Somebody sabotaged the door to the school so it wouldn't lock, they told this kid which door to use, and then they held the cops back for 40 minutes.

If they were concerned about making schools safer they would be talking about insuring the doors lock and making sure in states like Texas where guns are legal that a few people in the school are armed. That is the logical response.

 

[I_am_Canadian]

These school shootings are false flags. The purpose is to manipulate people into giving away their guns and people have figured that out. Somebody sabotaged the door to the school so it wouldn't lock, they told this kid which door to use, and then they held the cops back for 40 minutes.

If they were concerned about making schools safer they would be talking about insuring the doors lock and making sure in states like Texas where guns are legal that a few people in the school are armed. That is the logical response.

The people who make the laws are not going to favor a pro gun approach because the only way to stop a peasant uprising is to ensure they are unarmed while you rob them blind.

 

[Nehemiah6]

These school shootings are false flags.

The Democrats just love mass shootings. And if they did not happen on their own, there is no doubt that they would send out some of their thugs to start shooting people just so that guns can be targeted over and over again. After all they encouraged BLM and Antifa to go on multiple rampages throughout all the cities in order to create chaos. None of those miscreants was ever imprisoned (so far as we know). The Democrats are also the party of the KKK and Jim Crow laws. So lawlessness is a part of their political "DNA".

 

[Gojira]

I have heard this statement used in the context of debate on gun ownership, can someone explain please?

Easy: Guns don't shoot themselves.

Another way to look at it, guns kill people the way pens make spelling errors.

Besides, humans have been murdering other humans loooonnnngg before they had guns. Take them away, and there'll be cars to drive through crowds, home-made bombs, knives, machetes, etc...

The only thing that will stop murder is a genuine fear of God and the belief that people are created in His image -- not merely a complex but random collection of chemicals.

 

[Gojira]

The Democrats just love mass shootings. And if they did not happen on their own, there is no doubt that they would send out some of their thugs to start shooting people just so that guns can be targeted over and over again. After all they encouraged BLM and Antifa to go on multiple rampages throughout all the cities in order to create chaos. None of those miscreants was ever imprisoned (so far as we know). The Democrats are also the party of the KKK and Jim Crow laws. So lawlessness is a part of their political "DNA".

So very true.

But... you know when to take what they say seriously when they do. For example...

Are they privately protected by guns?

Do they build huge homes by coastlines they keep claiming will be flooded in ten years?

Do they wear masks everywhere they go?

 

[Gojira]

The phrase is a valid point, because ultimately the problem isn't the tool itself but the user. Getting rid of guns may provide some relief, but you still have the underlying problem that isn't dealt with.

Actually, crime would intensify. Criminals definitionally disobey laws, so that means that the "assailants", as Thomas Paine put it, would be the only ones armed. Mass shooters don't go into places where they expect the majority of people to be ready to fire back.

The Colorado shooter several years back had about 7 or so theaters to choose from within driving distance of his home. 6 of them permitted people to enter with their weapons. The one he chose did not.

They prefer to fish in a bucket. Take away that bucket, and...

 

[ZNP]

Easy: Guns don't shoot themselves.

Another way to look at it, guns kill people the way pens make spelling errors.

Agreed, we need to take these smart phones with auto correct away from these people sending out tweets and texts.

 

[ZNP]

So very true.

But... you know when to take what they say seriously when they do. For example...

Are they privately protected by guns?

Do they build huge homes by coastlines they keep claiming will be flooded in ten years?

Do they wear masks everywhere they go?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! You aren't suggesting that these people who are taking your guns, defunding your police, and encouraging mobs to threaten anyone who goes against them to have their homes and their families come out from behind their gated community are you?

 

[ZNP]

Actually, crime would intensify. Criminals definitionally disobey laws, so that means that the "assailants", as Thomas Paine put it, would be the only ones armed. Mass shooters don't go into places where they expect the majority of people to be ready to fire back.

The Colorado shooter several years back had about 7 or so theaters to choose from within driving distance of his home. 6 of them permitted people to enter with their weapons. The one he chose did not.

They prefer to fish in a bucket. Take away that bucket, and...

Can you imagine he shows up at one of those six theaters, pulls out his gun and all of a sudden 10 different people from all over the theater pull out guns and shoot him? He wouldn't have a chance.

These mass shooters often seem like they have diminished mental facilities, diminished financial resources and yet the money spent, the planning, even the preparation of leaving the doors open would get high marks from even the best assassins.

 

[I_am_Canadian]

The Democrats just love mass shootings. And if they did not happen on their own, there is no doubt that they would send out some of their thugs to start shooting people just so that guns can be targeted over and over again. After all they encouraged BLM and Antifa to go on multiple rampages throughout all the cities in order to create chaos. None of those miscreants was ever imprisoned (so far as we know). The Democrats are also the party of the KKK and Jim Crow laws. So lawlessness is a part of their political "DNA".

Why does thay sound so familiar kinda like the national socialists party of Germany from 1935-1944

 

[ZNP]

Why does thay sound so familiar kinda like the national socialists party of Germany from 1935-1944

Of course, think of the hypocrisy of June Teenth. It is such a slap in the face and insult to all those who fought and died to end slavery. Any reasonable person would have honored the Gettysburg address, an address made at a battlefield where so many died and which led to this declaration, or you could have honored the end of the Civil war. But no, if they did either of those they would have been giving credit to Lincoln, a Republican.

June teenth, a meaningless event that no one even knew about until the Democrats straight out of Jim Crowe and the AnteBellum south told us was significant.