IF 'THE DEAD' don't rise then who do we rule and reign over?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The saved dead will receive glorified bodies.

It's like asking someone who believes in 'the rapture theory' 'when is the church raised up to heaven' and they NEVER ANSWER.

This response doesn't address my post. I have no idea what you point is.

SO I ASK AGAIN, HOW ARE THOSE WHO NEVER DIE BEING RAISED FROM THE DEAD?

You simply misunderstand what Jesus was telling Martha. He WAS NOT referring to a physical body never dying, if you think that.

In fact, Heb 9:27 says plainly that it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment. What the verse doesn't say is that man will only die ONCE. And the 2 times in Revelation that speak of the LoF as the Second death" proves that those IN the LoF will die twice.

I can't answer the question BECAUSE I BELIEVE JESUS when He says we will never die.

I believe you are misunderstanding what Jesus said.

YOU OBVIOUSLY don't because you have SAVED souls being RAISED FROM THE DEAD.

Physically raised with gorified bodies. Don't you believe that?????

To be raised from the dead you have to be amongst the dead to be amongst the dead you have to die. To die is the OPPOSITE OF NEVER DIE.

No problem IF IF IF you properly understand what Jesus meant.

But you WON'T answer my question about where all those saved people are from Adam on who are saved. Where are they now?

You think their physical bodies will never die. You have no judtification for such thinking.

To "never die" referring to a believer means they will NEVER experience the second death, since Heb 9:27 PROVES that EVERYONE will physically die ONCE, at least. Unbelievers get to die twice.

SO I ASK AGAIN, how are those who never die being raised from the DEAD?

Scroll back up and read my answers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I think this is irrelevant. There are only saved and unsaved people when they die. Their future is set in stone.

And that is the problem. You are arguing from a place of milk and standing FIRM on issues you have not enough knowledge about to be doing so.

You have already demonstrated a failed understanding of what Jesus meant when He spoke with Martha in John 11.

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
The verse says "able to destroy soul". It does not say WILL destroy souls. And there are no other verses that say WILL destroy souls.
What about it? Give me the verse and let's examine what it does say.

Just pick which ever one or two or whatever you like best.


2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
2Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Peter 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;



Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.





Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.



Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[kleronomos]

This also indicates to me that only unbelievers will enter the Millennial reign of Christ in mortal bodies.

When you say 'mortal' you do you mean earth flesh bodies?

 

[kleronomos]

This also indicates to me that only unbelievers will enter the Millennial reign of Christ in mortal bodies. All believers will be resurrected and receive glorified bodies "when He comes" at the Second Advent, which is shown in Rev 20:4,5. Though the text only mentions tribulation martyrs, it's clear from other verses that there will be just ONE resurrection of the saved and it will include ALL believers.

How is that an indicator for you? I don't see a connection. How can 'believers' be resurrected from the dead if they never die?

 

[kleronomos]

The saved dead are all the believers who physically died before Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent.

Why don't you believe Jesus who said those who while living come to believe on Him will never die? I don't understand why you have them dying and waiting to be resurrected. I will keep asking until you answer with an answer that makes sense.

If I go on living eternally I CAN'T BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD. Only those who have DIED and are STILL DEAD can resurrect from the dead.

 

[kleronomos]

I don't know about any "unjust" that are raised up "when He comes". What verse or passage says this?

What I do know is that only the saved will be resurrected "when He comes", plus the living believers will be changed (glorified).

I'm not aware that any "unjust" will be resurrected until AFTER the Millennial reign and the battle of Gog and Magog.

Then WHEN did/do the DEAD who stand in judgment at the GWTJ resurrect? It had to be BEFORE the sea death and hell give up their dead.



We know the SAVED, the alive and remaining are changed and we know THE DEAD resurrect. BUT WE KNOW those who are SAVED, NEVER DIE and if someone never dies then THEY CAN'T BE AMONGST THE DEAD.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The verse says "able to destroy soul". It does not say WILL destroy souls. And there are no other verses that say WILL destroy souls.
What about it? Give me the verse and let's examine what it does say.

Just pick which ever one or two or whatever you like best.

2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Yes, Jesus even died for those who would never believe in Him. Nothing about soul destruction.

2Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
2Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Peter 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

I've read all of them. None speak of soul destruction.

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Nothing here about soul destruction.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Isa 55:7 tells us specifically who God will have mercy on: those who repent and turn to Him.

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

No soul destruction here.

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Why do you assume "destruction" refers to the soul in these verses? It is about physical death.

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And your point here?

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

"destruction"

apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Definition: destruction, loss
Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off(entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).
684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Blue words are used by some translations, but that doesn't make them right.

The red words shows that the word isn't about soul destruction, which would be "annihilation", but loss of well being.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Ditto here.

You haven't shown any verse that speaks of the annihilation (destruction) of the soul.

And we know from Rev 20 that those cast into the lake of fire will be tormented "day and night, for ever and ever".

This is NOT a figure of speech. It is literal, because John mentioned specific time units, "day and night". If he had left those words out, one could argue about being a figure of speech.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This also indicates to me that only unbelievers will enter the Millennial reign of Christ in mortal bodies.

When you say 'mortal' you do you mean earth flesh bodies?

Yes, I do. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is that an indicator for you? I don't see a connection. How can 'believers' be resurrected from the dead if they never die?

I don't understand. I've already explained what you are misunderstanding about what Jesus said to Martha, and you still come back to this.

When a believer physically dies, as we are ALL "appointed" to do, per Heb 9:27, the body goes into the grave and the believer's conscious soul goes to be with the Lord.

On resurrection day, "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23, Jesus brings with Him all the dead saints and resurrects their dead bodies out of the grave and glorified and joins them to their souls. Voila. A glorified believer.

Jesus NEVER EVER said that a believer will never physically die, which it seems, is your understanding of John 11:25-27.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why don't you believe Jesus who said those who while living come to believe on Him will never die?

I do believe Him. Our difference is that I understand what He meant and you don't.

I don't understand why you have them dying and waiting to be resurrected.

OK, a question for you: why don't you believe Heb 9:27? Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Gotta ask: have any of your family or friends died?

I will keep asking until you answer with an answer that makes sense.

Your understanding of what Jesus said doesn't make sense. Sounds as though you actually believe that saved people never die, but just keep walking around on earth. Where is your proof of that?

If I go on living eternally I CAN'T BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD. Only those who have DIED and are STILL DEAD can resurrect from the dead.

Yes, the fact that "those who have died and are still dead CAN resurrect from the dead.

So I don't understand why you are still asking the questions that you are asking.

The resurrection refers to the dead body rising to life GLORIFIED if a believer. Not so with the unsaved. They get their old carcass back for the GWT judgment and then get to die physically once again when cast into the lake of fire.

That is the ONLY REASON Revelation calls the lake of fire the "second death" twice. The unsaved will literally physically die 2 times.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then WHEN did/do the DEAD who stand in judgment at the GWTJ resurrect? It had to be BEFORE the sea death and hell give up their dead.

Yes, it is after the battle of Gog and Magog, which occurs at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ. All the living unsaved from the Millennial reign will be killed. Then resurrected in their physical bodies to appear before the GWT judgment, only to have their physical bodies die ONCE AGAIN. But their souls will be 'tormented day and night, for ever and ever".

We know the SAVED, the alive and remaining are changed and we know THE DEAD resurrect. BUT WE KNOW those who are SAVED, NEVER DIE and if someone never dies then THEY CAN'T BE AMONGST THE DEAD.

All of this is internally contradicted. Your first sentence here is TRUE. Reality. So how can you then give me your second sentence, which is diametrically opposed to the first sentence???

In your first sentence, know that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected, which you apparently either don't believe.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Do you believe that there will be a resurrection for the "righteous" (saved)? The Bible SAYS SO.

I think that's your problem.

 

[kleronomos]

First, the Bible says there will be a resurrecton for the saved and the unsaved. Acts 24:15. John 5:28,29

It isn't written 'saved and unsaved', those are the words, why are you using them?


Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

And I am wondering if it is time to exercise myself, and move away from this conversation. One last try.



What does this say to you?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent me,



hath everlasting life,

2192. echó ►
Strong's Concordance
echó: to have, hold
Original Word: ἔχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: echó
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-o)
Definition: to have, hold
Usage: I have, hold, possess.



and shall not come into condemnation;

2920. krisis ►
Strong's Concordance
krisis: a decision, judgment
Original Word: κρίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: krisis
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-sis)
Definition: a decision, judgment
Usage: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2920 krísis (a feminine noun derived from 2919 /krínō, "to separate, distinguish, judge") – judgment, emphasizing its qualitative aspect that can apply either to a positive verdict (for righteousness) – or more commonly, a "negative" verdict which condemns the nature of sin that brings it on. See 2919 (krinō).

[2917 (kríma) stresses the results that go with a particular judgment (of blessing or pain depending on the choice).]


but is passed from death unto life.


HOW IT READS IN THE GREEK
Truly truly I say to you that the [one] the word of Me hearing and believing the {ONE} having sent Me, HE HAS LIFE ETERNAL AND INTO JUDGMENT NOT COMES BUT HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE


If we have ALREADY PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE

then WE WILL NEVER BE DEAD again

so WE WILL NEVER be amongst the dead, not for any period of time.

making it impossible for us to resurrect with the dead because we will not have gone to hell but we will have gone to heaven

SO, WE CAN'T BE 'THE DEAD' WHO RISE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS because we don't go to hell WE have received the gift of salvation.


What hour was coming, NOW? What hour was in the FUTURE?

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


JESUS, Himself, speaking has NOT YET died and risen. SO, 'the dead' Jesus is speaking about are those already in their graves. Those already in their graves are 'sleeping' . Soon Jesus will be put to 'sleep', joining those sleeping. Jesus will soon rise. Also those sleeping will soon rise, HAVING HEARD HIS VOICE.

Jesus becomes the FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT.

HOW CAN THAT BE?

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in Himself;

John 5:27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

All those asleep will VERY SOON HEAR THE VOICE OF JESUS because very soon He will be crucified. AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY HEAR THE VOICE OF JESUS? THEY LIVE. THEY NO LONGER ASLEEP. THEY NO LONGER DEAD. THEIR GRAVES OPEN. THEY RISE UP. THEY APPEAR TO SOME (NOT ALL). JESUS THE FIRST FRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT.


IF THE DEAD DON'T RISE THEN JESUS ISN'T RISEN. Exactly as it is written. NOT if the dead WILL be rising SOMEDAY, but exactly using the words HE wants to use to say what HE wants to say.


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, (BUT DOESN'T SAY 'NOW IS' BECAUSE IT IS YET FUTURE)

in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

Who will be IN THEIR GRAVES? the dead, (NOT THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE, THEY HAVE GONE TO BE WITH THE LORD WHERE HE IS)


John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



From your posts, you are as solid as ever on what you believe, as am I. Can you think of any reason for us to do this again? Should we just walk away or is there something you have not said that you would like to say? If you have said everything, then hopefully we can now part ways, if there is something left that hasn't been mentioned before then please do.

 

[kleronomos]

OK, a question for you: why don't you believe Heb 9:27? Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Gotta ask: have any of your family or friends died?

My Grandparents, my dad, my husband, my friends, my friends husbands and wives, my friends babies and children, people I have worked with, neighbors.

I do believe people die once and then judgment.

Your understanding of what Jesus said doesn't make sense. Sounds as though you actually believe that saved people never die, but just keep walking around on earth. Where is your proof of that?

I have continuously stated they go to heaven in their spiritual bodies to return with the Lord when He does. ALWAYS the same. Never changes in any way shape or form. Just as I say those who rose from their graves were in their spiritual bodies and were 'seen' for awhile and then ascended to heaven and I believe it is spoken of 'led the captivity'....

Yes, the fact that "those who have died and are still dead CAN resurrect from the dead.

So I don't understand why you are still asking the questions that you are asking.

The resurrection refers to the dead body rising to life GLORIFIED if a believer. Not so with the unsaved. They get their old carcass back for the GWT judgment and then get to die physically once again when cast into the lake of fire.

That is the ONLY REASON Revelation calls the lake of fire the "second death" twice. The unsaved will literally physically die 2 times.

AGAIN, I have NEVER SAID the dead don't resurrect. NOT ONE TIME. Never. I have said those who are living and believe in Him NEVER DIE. They pass through death by dropping off the flesh and rising in their spiritual bodies to go be where HE is and He is in heaven. I never change. I never sway. I do not bend with with changing winds.

1st death is of flesh body . 2nd death is of both body and soul

The resurrection refers to the dead body rising to life GLORIFIED if a believer. Not so with the unsaved. They get their old carcass back for the GWT judgment and then get to die physically once again when cast into the lake of fire.

The resurrection is from the state of being dead and coming back to life.

YOU CAN KEEP SAYING it is the 'dead body' THAT comes back to life, but you are the only one

AS IT IS NOT WRITTEN THAT THE DEAD BODY WILL RISE BACK TO LIFE.

THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THE DEAD BODY RISING TO LIFE IS WRITTEN. The dead body goes to dust. All that 'rises' is a bare seed. ONE CELL is all it takes and GOD GIVE EVERY SEED A BODY AS HE SEE FIT.

that is what is written

 

[kleronomos]

Yes, Jesus even died for those who would never believe in Him. Nothing about soul destruction.

Looking up the word 'perish' we find it's definition to be

622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]

 

[kleronomos]

Yes, Jesus even died for those who would never believe in Him. Nothing about soul destruction.

Using your own words again, instead of what is written.

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
The verse says "able to destroy soul". It does not say WILL destroy souls. And there are no other verses that say WILL destroy souls.
What about it? Give me the verse and let's examine what it does say.

Yes, Jesus even died for those who would never believe in Him. Nothing about soul destruction.


I've read all of them. None speak of soul destruction.


Nothing here about soul destruction.


Isa 55:7 tells us specifically who God will have mercy on: those who repent and turn to Him.


No soul destruction here.


Why do you assume "destruction" refers to the soul in these verses? It is about physical death.


And your point here?


"destruction"

apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Definition: destruction, loss
Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off(entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).
684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Blue words are used by some translations, but that doesn't make them right.

The red words shows that the word isn't about soul destruction, which would be "annihilation", but loss of well being.


Ditto here.

You haven't shown any verse that speaks of the annihilation (destruction) of the soul.

And we know from Rev 20 that those cast into the lake of fire will be tormented "day and night, for ever and ever".

This is NOT a figure of speech. It is literal, because John mentioned specific time units, "day and night". If he had left those words out, one could argue about being a figure of speech.

You are going to read it how you want but that's a lot of 'what he really meant's,' He just wanted to make it LOOK LIKE THAT, but that isn't what He means at all. You know how much God likes to confuse, Oh wait, that is Satan.

Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deuteronomy 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deuteronomy 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deuteronomy 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

Deuteronomy 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deuteronomy 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


I can't believe you would go here again.

CONSUMING FIRE.

2654. katanaliskó ►
Strong's Concordance
katanaliskó: to use up
Original Word: καταναλίσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katanaliskó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-an-al-is'-ko)
Definition: to use up
Usage: I use up, spend, consume (as with fire).
HELPS Word-studies
2654 katanalískō (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," intensifying 355 /analískō, "consume") – properly, consume all the way ("up to down"), i.e. exactly (decisively, conclusively). 2654 (katanalískō) means "to consume utterly, wholly (kata, intensive)" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 125) and only occurs in Heb 12:29.

LIKE SMOKE, THEIR TORMENT GOES UP FOR EVER AND EVER.

Like when the fat of meat hits a hot coal. LOF during this earth age, not next one. All things made new. List goes on and on

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
This also indicates to me that only unbelievers will enter the Millennial reign of Christ in mortal bodies.

Yes, I do. Do you agree or disagree?

How could I ever agree, when it is written the body goes back to dust? How could I ever agree when it is written 'a bare grain and God gives it a body as He wants and to every seed a body?

 

[kleronomos]

When a believer physically dies, as we are ALL "appointed" to do, per Heb 9:27, the body goes into the grave and the believer's conscious soul goes to be with the Lord.

EVERY SEED A BODY.

 

[kleronomos]

When a believer physically dies, as we are ALL "appointed" to do, per Heb 9:27, the body goes into the grave and the believer's conscious soul goes to be with the Lord.

On resurrection day, "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23, Jesus brings with Him all the dead saints and resurrects their dead bodies out of the grave and glorified and joins them to their souls. Voila. A glorified believer.

Jesus NEVER EVER said that a believer will never physically die, which it seems, is your understanding of John 11:25-27.

AS I have maintained from the very beginning, the flesh body dies and a bare grain does GOD use for the spiritual body that rises and every seed a body. I have never shifted from this position. Not once. Never will as it is written.

Never die means pass through death means earth flesh goes back to dust and spiritual body goes to heaven to be where He is and RETURNS WITH HIM

NOT TO BE RESURRECTED WITH THE DEAD BECAUSE ALREADY ALIVE, HAVE REMAINED ALIVE, AREN'T COMING BACK FOR A ONCE FORMED ON A SPIRIT/SOUL EARTH DUST BODY.

Why aren't they coming back for decaying earth to resurrect and be glorified? BECAUSE they LEFT in a glorified spiritual body, just like it is written,


The body we sow is not the body that shall be. That dust body provides but a bare grain for the spiritual body that God gives and God gives every seed a body. SO NEVER are we without a body. We don't become evil spirits when we die. We go to heaven where we see and speak and NEED ROBES etc.