Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[SomeDisciple]

When the term "free will" is used, it suggests that man has to will his belief in the gospel. Of course, no one ever "wills" what he/she believes. They just do it. It's crazy to even think we need to "will" what we believe.

Making a choice is a function of your will; so, choosing to believe or reject the Gospel does actually involve the will.

There is a choice involved when you are convicted by the Holy Spirit- Harden your heart, or humble yourself and receive the word and enter into Godly sorrow unto repentance.
Then there is another choice when you hear the Gospel- Believe the Gospel and be saved, or don't believe the Gospel, and don't.

The "act of will" or "volition" is different than the will- but they are closely related- and that's what baptism is for; to make your willing choice visible to others.

 

[Thewatchman]

I would encourage all to read the whole chapter. It is a good lessen to all of us as to how the Lord God will take care of us if we follow His ways, If we will train up our children to follow His ways. He lies out will happen if we do follow Him and if we do not follow him.This is an example for us today. We have all these enemies surrounding; porn on the internet, TV, etc. Drugs, liquor, False religion. These other nations did not know God, they had all types of gods and God knew that if His people did not stay faithful to Him they would stray. We are the same today Satan is out there fighting for every soul he can get. I am not saying there is an evil spirit behind every bush. You see in verse 28 to the end of this chapter God sets before us a choice “free will” we can choose blessings, or we can choose curses.

Deuteronomy 11

1“You shall therefore love the LORD your God and keep his charge, his statutes, his rules, and his commandments always. 2And consider today (since I am not speaking to your children who have not known or seen it), consider the disciplinea of the LORD your God, his greatness, his mighty hand and his outstretched arm, 3his signs and his deeds that he did in Egypt to Pharaoh the king of Egypt and to all his land, 4and what he did to the army of Egypt, to their horses and to their chariots, how he made the water of the Red Sea flow over them as they pursued after you, and how the LORD has destroyed them to this day, 5and what he did to you in the wilderness, until you came to this place, 6and what he did to Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, son of Reuben, how the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households, their tents, and every living thing that followed them, in the midst of all Israel. 7For your eyes have seen all the great work of the LORD that he did.8“You shall therefore keep the whole commandment that I command you today, that you may be strong, and go in and take possession of the land that you are going over to possess, 9and that you may live long in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers to give to them and to their offspring, a land flowing with milk and honey. 10For the land that you are entering to take possession of it is not like the land of Egypt, from which you have come, where you sowed your seed and irrigated it,b like a garden of vegetables. 11But the land that you are going over to possess is a land of hills and valleys, which drinks water by the rain from heaven, 12a land that the LORD your God cares for. The eyes of the LORD your God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year to the end of the year.13“And if you will indeed obey my commandments that I command you today, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, 14hec will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil. 15And he will give grass in your fields for your livestock, and you shall eat and be full. 16Take care lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them; 17then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and he will shut up the heavens, so that there will be no rain, and the land will yield no fruit, and you will perish quickly off the good land that the LORD is giving you.18“You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 19You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. 20You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, 21that your days and the days of your children may be multiplied in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens are above the earth. 22For if you will be careful to do all this commandment that I command you to do, loving the LORD your God, walking in all his ways, and holding fast to him, 23then the LORD will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations greater and mightier than you. 24Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours. Your territory shall be from the wilderness tod the Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea. 25No one shall be able to stand against you. The LORD your God will lay the fear of you and the dread of you on all the land that you shall tread, as he promised you.26“See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today, 28and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known. 29And when the LORD your God brings you into the land that you are entering to take possession of it, you shall set the blessing on Mount Gerizim and the curse on Mount Ebal. 30Are they not beyond the Jordan, west of the road, toward the going down of the sun, in the land of the Canaanites who live in the Arabah, opposite Gilgal, beside the oake of Moreh? 31For you are to cross over the Jordan to go in to take possession of the land that the LORD your God is giving you. And when you possess it and live in it, 32you shall be careful to do all the statutes and the rules that I am setting before you today.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I would encourage all to read the whole chapter. It is a good lessen to all of us as to how the Lord God will take care of us if we follow His ways, If we will train up our children to follow His ways. He lies out will happen if we do follow Him and if we do not follow him.This is an example for us today. We have all these enemies surrounding; porn on the internet, TV, etc. Drugs, liquor, False religion. These other nations did not know God, they had all types of gods and God knew that if His people did not stay faithful to Him they would stray. We are the same today Satan is out there fighting for every soul he can get. I am not saying there is an evil spirit behind every bush. You see in verse 28 to the end of this chapter God sets before us a choice “free will” we can choose blessings, or we can choose curses.

Deuteronomy 11

1“You shall therefore love the LORD your God and keep his charge, his statutes, his rules, and his commandments always. 2And consider today (since I am not speaking to your children who have not known or seen it), consider the disciplinea of the LORD your God, his greatness, his mighty hand and his outstretched arm, 3his signs and his deeds that he did in Egypt to Pharaoh the king of Egypt and to all his land, 4and what he did to the army of Egypt, to their horses and to their chariots, how he made the water of the Red Sea flow over them as they pursued after you, and how the LORD has destroyed them to this day, 5and what he did to you in the wilderness, until you came to this place, 6and what he did to Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, son of Reuben, how the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households, their tents, and every living thing that followed them, in the midst of all Israel. 7For your eyes have seen all the great work of the LORD that he did.8“You shall therefore keep the whole commandment that I command you today, that you may be strong, and go in and take possession of the land that you are going over to possess, 9and that you may live long in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers to give to them and to their offspring, a land flowing with milk and honey. 10For the land that you are entering to take possession of it is not like the land of Egypt, from which you have come, where you sowed your seed and irrigated it,b like a garden of vegetables. 11But the land that you are going over to possess is a land of hills and valleys, which drinks water by the rain from heaven, 12a land that the LORD your God cares for. The eyes of the LORD your God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year to the end of the year.13“And if you will indeed obey my commandments that I command you today, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, 14hec will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil. 15And he will give grass in your fields for your livestock, and you shall eat and be full. 16Take care lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them; 17then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and he will shut up the heavens, so that there will be no rain, and the land will yield no fruit, and you will perish quickly off the good land that the LORD is giving you.18“You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 19You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. 20You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, 21that your days and the days of your children may be multiplied in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens are above the earth. 22For if you will be careful to do all this commandment that I command you to do, loving the LORD your God, walking in all his ways, and holding fast to him, 23then the LORD will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations greater and mightier than you. 24Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours. Your territory shall be from the wilderness tod the Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea. 25No one shall be able to stand against you. The LORD your God will lay the fear of you and the dread of you on all the land that you shall tread, as he promised you.26“See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today, 28and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known. 29And when the LORD your God brings you into the land that you are entering to take possession of it, you shall set the blessing on Mount Gerizim and the curse on Mount Ebal. 30Are they not beyond the Jordan, west of the road, toward the going down of the sun, in the land of the Canaanites who live in the Arabah, opposite Gilgal, beside the oake of Moreh? 31For you are to cross over the Jordan to go in to take possession of the land that the LORD your God is giving you. And when you possess it and live in it, 32you shall be careful to do all the statutes and the rules that I am setting before you today.

Agreed. The entire chapter is amazing. In fact, it is all about God and what [He] does. In the translation you used, the "Lord" is referenced 18 times. Deut chapter 11 is about God. Amazing.

NKJV - "Therefore you shall love the LORD your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always. "Know today that I do not speak with your children, who have not known and who have not seen the chastening of the LORD your God, His greatness and His mighty hand and His outstretched arm-- "His signs and His acts which He did in the midst of Egypt, to Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to all his land; "what He did to the army of Egypt, to their horses and their chariots: how He made the waters of the Red Sea overflow them as they pursued you, and how the LORD has destroyed them to this day; "what He did for you in the wilderness until you came to this place; "and what He did to Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, the son of Reuben: how the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, their households, their tents, and all the substance that was in their possession, in the midst of all Israel-- "but your eyes have seen every great act of the LORD which He did."

So I hear about what you're saying in terms of how the Jews needed to choose, but what about those in verse 25? Could they choose?

"25No one shall be able to stand against you. The LORD your God will lay the fear of you and the dread of you on all the land that you shall tread, as he promised you."

It doesn't really sound like they have the same choices as the Jews appear to have.

What do you think?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Making a choice is a function of your will; so, choosing to believe or reject the Gospel does actually involve the will.

I know that it is difficult to accept, but we have plenty of Scripture that says the exact opposite to what you're sharing. I'm sorry.

Romans 9:15-18 NLT - 15 For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." 16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. 17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth." 18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen."

Do you accept this Scripture or deny it?

 

[SomeDisciple]

Do you accept this Scripture or deny it?

There's no need for apology- I accept the scripture just fine, but I understand the verses in light of the preceding verses and the entire epistle. Which I will expand on later when I am at my computer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Making a choice is a function of your will

But, we DON'T "will" our choice. We simply make a choice. It's a mental choice.

so, choosing to believe or reject the Gospel does actually involve the will.

Not really. It involves the conscience. A mental choice. If I exert my will against yours, there would be a physical interaction involved.

There is NO physical interaction involved with a mental choice.

There is a choice involved when you are convicted by the Holy Spirit- Harden your heart, or humble yourself and receive the word and enter into Godly sorrow unto repentance.

Again, a mental choice.

Then there is another choice when you hear the Gospel- Believe the Gospel and be saved, or don't believe the Gospel, and don't.

Exactly. A mental choice.

The "act of will" or "volition" is different than the will- but they are closely related- and that's what baptism is for; to make your willing choice visible to others.

I believe that. I don't believe the calvinistic claim that total depravity means that human beings are UNABLE to believe the gospel unless first regenerated/born again/made alive/etc.

 

[Thewatchman]

Agreed. The entire chapter is amazing. In fact, it is all about God and what [He] does. In the translation you used, the "Lord" is referenced 18 times. Deut chapter 11 is about God. Amazing.

NKJV - "Therefore you shall love the LORD your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always. "Know today that I do not speak with your children, who have not known and who have not seen the chastening of the LORD your God, His greatness and His mighty hand and His outstretched arm-- "His signs and His acts which He did in the midst of Egypt, to Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to all his land; "what He did to the army of Egypt, to their horses and their chariots: how He made the waters of the Red Sea overflow them as they pursued you, and how the LORD has destroyed them to this day; "what He did for you in the wilderness until you came to this place; "and what He did to Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, the son of Reuben: how the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, their households, their tents, and all the substance that was in their possession, in the midst of all Israel-- "but your eyes have seen every great act of the LORD which He did."

So I hear about what you're saying in terms of how the Jews needed to choose, but what about those in verse 25? Could they choose?

"25No one shall be able to stand against you. The LORD your God will lay the fear of you and the dread of you on all the land that you shall tread, as he promised you."

It doesn't really sound like they have the same choices as the Jews appear to have.

What do you think?

This comes from Got Questions .com
Non-Israelites were not to participate in many areas of the Jewish sacrificial system. However, one way in which a foreigner could participate was in the burnt offering (Leviticus 17:8–9). The foreigner was to bring his burnt offering to the tabernacle, just like any natural-born Israelite. When a burnt offering was made at the tabernacle, it was clear that the sacrifice was made to the Lord Almighty and not to another god.

In addition, Numbers 15:14-16 says, “For the generations to come, whenever a foreigner or anyone else living among you presents a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord, they must do exactly as you do. The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.” Many traditions were restricted only to Jews, but those that were not could be observed by Gentile sojourners living among the people of Israel.

The Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles were also mentioned as festivals that a “sojourner” could attend (Deuteronomy 16). Sojourners were to be treated well, since the Israelites had likewise been sojourners in Egypt (Exodus 23:9).

While many distinctions were made in the Old Testament between Jewish and non-Jewish practices, the Old Testament is clear that God’s love extends to all who will trust in Him. A striking example is found in the book of Jonah. Jonah, a prophet, runs from God after being called to preach against the wickedness of the Gentile city of Nineveh. After God gets His prophet back on track, Jonah preaches to the people of Nineveh. They fast in repentance, and God has mercy on them and spares their city. Through it all, Jonah learns what Peter learns centuries later: “How true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right” (Acts 10:34–35).

 

[phil36]

It seems that some don't understand what is mean't by human will. Just a quick search online will maybe help.

free will...... the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe. (britannica. com)

And

... Human will refers to the human capacity to actively decide what to do instead of reacting automatically to stimuli.

So it plain to see that post #266 is untenable. See below.

But, we DON'T "will" our choice. We simply make a choice. It's a mental choice

Your mental choice is the active capacity of your(human will)..

Hopefully this post help is all in understanding the issues at hand..

The real question is what motivates that active capicity of the will.

If we look to God, we say God has fee will, yet all his choices and decisions and action come from an out flowing of his nature... How do we know that? Simple! God can't lie. Even though we say he has free will, it is not in God's nature to lie, and nor will he. Who he is dictates the out-flowing of his will.

The same is true of man in that all our decisions and thought process derive from who we are, our nature, and any thought or action will be an out-flowing from the human nature.

The difference being is that God is Holy - man is sinfully wicked... Man's desires are evil desires...

His nature needs to be changed in order for those desires to be changed..man desperately needs a new heart.. This brings about new thoughts and decisions from a changed nature.

unless the heart is changed no man will choose God. His fallen nature will not allow it. He detests the things of God.. Infact he an enemy of God.. Read romans 1 and 2 for the plight of all men (who aren't saved).

 

[FreeGrace2]

It seems that some don't understand what is mean't by human will. Just a quick search online will maybe help.

free will...... the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe. (britannica. com)

And

... Human will refers to the human capacity to actively decide what to do instead of reacting automatically to stimuli.

So it plain to see that post #266 is untenable.

My post is totally tenable. The second statement is what I have said. "human capacity to decide what to do (or what to believe).

It is your claim that is untenable.

See below.
FreeGrace2 said:
But, we DON'T "will" our choice. We simply make a choice. It's a mental choice

Your mental choice is the active capacity of your(human will)..

To overpower your will with mine requires FORCE. Thinking isn't a FORCE, unless you come from the same planet that Dr Spock came from.

Hopefully this post help is all in understanding the issues at hand..

Yes, hopefully my correction will help in understand the reality of what is at hand. Freedom to choose (believe) the gospel.

The real question is what motivates that active capicity of the will.

Yep, Calvinist always try to get this smokescreen in. They just CANNOT accept the fact that unregenerate man is ABLE to believe the gospel. Their unbiblical doctrine of unconditional election "overpowers their own will" to believe the truth.

If we look to God, we say God has fee will

Let's be real here. God is sovereign, and God is omnipotent. That is far above "free will".

, yet all his choices and decisions and action come from an out flowing of his nature... How do we know that? Simple! God can't lie. Even though we say he has free will, it is not in God's nature to lie, and nor will he. Who he is dictates the out-flowing of his will.

All that to say that God can't be contradictory or inconsistent with His perfection.

The same is true of man in that all our decisions and thought process derive from who we are, our nature, and any thought or action will be an out-flowing from the human nature.

And Paul proved that even the Gentiles, who didn't have the Law, had the Law "written on their heats", which is their conscience.

Where did that pesky conscience come from? God. God programmed the conscience to be able to discern right from wrong. Proven by EVERY society since Adam.

The difference being is that God is Holy - man is sinfully wicked... Man's desires are evil desires...

Blanket statements are generally never true for the whole. Many unbelievers live very moral lives. Mormons, non-radicalized Muslims, and the list goes on and on. Even atheists can be moral and many are. It's the radicalized atheists who get all the attention, because they actually DO believe in God, and they HATE Him. That's why they are such "activists".

His nature needs to be changed in order for those desires to be changed.

But this doesn't include the ability to believe God's promise of eternal life.

.man desperately needs a new heart..

Agreed!

This brings about new thoughts and decisions from a changed nature.

No, actually, it OUGHT TO do that.

unless the heart is changed no man will choose God.

This is why Calvinism is incorrect. This is untrue. Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that salvation and regeneration are both THROUGH FAITH. Which means that faith goes FIRST, then salvation and regeneration.

His fallen nature will not allow it.

Calvinist opinion.

He detests the things of God.. Infact he an enemy of God..

All humans are enemies because we are sinners. That doesn't prove or mean that a sinner can't believe in God's promise of salvation.

 

[Polar]

I hear what you're saying. Regarding Pharaoh, there are other translations that describe his heart (though I recognize that you may not appreciate the translation itself):

Exodus 8:15 NLT - "But when Pharaoh saw that relief had come, he became stubborn. He refused to listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had predicted."

Also, the Bible tells us that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. LOL

the New Living Translation Bible?

The New Living Translation is an extensive revision of Ken Taylor's Living Bible (published by Tyndale House in 1971). It was designed to improve the accuracy of Taylor's paraphrase. This review is worth reading with regards to the accuracy of that particular translation.

Like the Good News Bible, the preface of the NLT states that the translation was done in accordance with principles of 'dynamic equivalence.' It explains that "the goal of this translation theory is to produce in the receptor language the closest natural equivalent of the message expressed by the original-language text—both in meaning and in style. Such a translation attempts to have the same impact on modern readers as the original had on its own audience ... the New Living Translation seeks to be both exegetically accurate and idiomatically powerful." The problems inherent in this method of 'dynamic equivalence' are well known — they are discussed in the essay "Against the Theory of Dynamic Equivalence" on this site, and we will not dwell on them here. It would be useless to criticize the version for specific non-literal renderings when the editors have renounced literal accuracy in principle; but it would be pertinent to ask whether the version is a good one according to its own stated goals, and so we will do this under the several headings below.

Come on. I wanted to believe you when you said you want the truth even if it proves you wrong. How hard did you have to look to find a different word other than hardened? As it is, stubborn bears out the same meaning.

adjective

1. having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so.
   "a stubborn refusal to learn from experience"

Yes, God did harden Pharaoh's heart but Pharaoh already had that kind of heart. God did not decide to give him a hard heart; He worked with what was already there.

Let's be honest here. You cannot dismiss the fact the Bible states Pharaoh hardened his heart to put forth your desire to prove humans cannot make their own choices. You have to examine all that is stated and not dismiss something that might challenge your own interpretation.

Don't take this as rude. Frankly, I was a little taken aback at your wording. I'm a straightforward person and I was surprised at what I see as your attempt to ignore what is actually stated regarding Pharaoh.

 

[Polar]

The reason for why I choose to believe that God hardened his heart is because on many occasions, it is said that God did what He did to prove His Power.

Romans 9:17 NLT - "For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth."

I will always lean towards the greater reasoning.

I appreciate your dialog, Polar. Thank you!

Well I hope you keep appreciating it.

When I read God appointed Pharaoh, I do not believe that renders the understanding to mean anything other than God worked with what was already there and that would put me in agreement with Bible scholars and those who understand the original languages, so I will understand that the translation is faithful and should not be dismissed.

 

[Polar]

I have to run, but I after my Spiritual experience, I came to realize the death, and I mean any form of death, is an escape from this place that is the world of the Devil. My experience was so incredible, that I realized that even the death of the woman who was raped so much that it killed her, to die was a gift. I found out that it doesn't matter how a person dies, we just need to die. We must pass from this form to the next form, for when we are in the presence of our Peaceful and Loving God, the manner in which we died is irrelevant. In fact, we will wish that we had undergone that even years before . . . even the same death. It really doesn't matter how we die . . . death is a gift of escapement.

Psalm 116:15 KJV - "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints."

Our humanity gets in the way of understanding the Lord's Way . . . and His Ways are not like our ways. His Understanding is not like our limited understanding.

Isaiah 55:8 NKJV - "For My thoughts [are] not your thoughts, Nor [are] your ways My ways," says the LORD."

Have a great night.

Interesting. Yet without this present life, we would not know God, salvation or have the opportunity to live with Him in eternity.

I do not perceive your outlook in application to my own. With certainty this world is fallen and despite that, we can see God's handiwork all around us and yet the Bible tells us that all of nature groans under the burden of sin. I believe we are prepared in this world, for the next. Eye hath not seen nor ear heard, the things that God has prepared for them that love Him.

 

[Polar]

FreeGrace2 said:
And that is precisely the issue. Since Calvinists do not believe that an unsaved person has the ability to believe apart from being regenerated first, they have to attack "free will" and freedom to choose, whatever. Either way, their position is refuted.

It seems there are many who are being taught by their pastors the "reformed way" and they don't even know anything about Calvin the man or his theology. They just know what they are taught, which is Calvinism. Many pastors just don't advertise that fact.


Yes, 3-, 4-, and 5 pointers, for sure.

I am puzzled as to how the Holy Spirit basically 'forces' salvation according to the Calvinist doctrine. The Bible is clear we do not receive the Holy Spirit until we are a believer. I am not referring to this particular thread here, but remembering past debates with hard core Calvinists who make grandiose assumptions in their efforts to persuade all those without their 'election' that really God creates but most are just going to hell. All scripture referring to what is very clearly outlined as choice, is bent so out of shape as to be painful.

I have heard some pretty strange arguments, but one thing in common with them, is that they almost all become angry. Really angry. I attribute that to the spirit of Calvin himself, who set the example it seems. But like I said, I am not referring to this thread or the op at this point.

Anyway

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am puzzled as to how the Holy Spirit basically 'forces' salvation according to the Calvinist doctrine.

Exactly! He doesn't force anyone. Or the Bible would have said so clearly.

The Bible is clear we do not receive the Holy Spirit until we are a believer. I am not referring to this particular thread here, but remembering past debates with hard core Calvinists who make grandiose assumptions in their efforts to persuade all those without their 'election' that really God creates but most are just going to hell. All scripture referring to what is very clearly outlined as choice, is bent so out of shape as to be painful.

Definitely!

I have heard some pretty strange arguments, but one thing in common with them, is that they almost all become angry.

It seems most who get a challenge to their beliefs become angry, or at least upset and bothered. I don't know why so many people are so hyper-sensitive and take disagreement personally.

Really angry. I attribute that to the spirit of Calvin himself, who set the example it seems. But like I said, I am not referring to this thread or the op at this point.

Anyway

 

[Polar]

Yes, and as you know, I do not care for the term free will at all. Self will, yes.

Now self will can either be aligned with God's will, or opposed to it.

What perplexes me is, since the natural man cannot accept the things that come from God, isn't it true
that our hearts must be changed before we can believe? And yet there are those who say we are free
to believe. Free, as a slave to sin, to believe something we are in rebellion against. Yes, that perplexes me.

However, I know we are all quite different and God can work in and with any set of circumstances

Self will pretty much sums up what we exercise, but I use the word choice, thinking along the same lines you express above.

I accepted Jesus when I was just 5. I was not a hardened sinner, but certainly not without sin. I knew nothing about God or Jesus or salvation yet when I heard about it, I considered it and actually put something before God that went along the lines of 'if this all true, please do such and such' And that prayer was immediately answered and so I put my little hands together, bowed my head and prayed in my parents living room and 'asked Jesus to come into my heart' as I had heard in Sunday School.

This was just between God and me. No adults present and I was alone as my dad was outside shoveling snow and my mom was in the hospital.

You know, people do pray without being saved and those prayers are answered sometimes. I know this to be true. People do believe in God even without salvation.

 

[Polar]

I don't think it wrong to state that the main debate here is choice. Do we have it or do we not have it. I believe the Bible is 100% clear that we do have choice.

Here is Jesus in the book of Revelation:

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.” Revelation 3:20

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

There's no need for apology- I accept the scripture just fine, but I understand the verses in light of the preceding verses and the entire epistle. Which I will expand on later when I am at my computer.

Sweet. This is what I want to do. I'd like that we all acknowledge ALL of Scripture, and then try to find harmony between them all. As I've said before, I duly acknowledge all of the passages that seem to prove that we must choose, choose, choose . . . lest there be consequences. However, the Lord's Ways are not our ways.

Isaiah 55:8 NKJV - "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD."

This is a directly clue as to how to identify the Mysterious Plan of God as Paul discusses in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Human will refers to the human capacity to actively decide what to do instead of reacting automatically to stimuli.

Beautiful. I'm going to add this to my personal dictionary. And so this definition fits in perfectly with all of the examples that I am offering. The Bible is filled, and I mean filled with example after example of God directing and influencing the thoughts, decisions, and behaviors of humanity so as to fulfill His Almighty and Eternal Plan, pre-written upon the Scroll of the Lord.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It seems that some don't understand what is mean't by human will. Just a quick search online will maybe help.

free will...... the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe. (britannica. com)

And

... Human will refers to the human capacity to actively decide what to do instead of reacting automatically to stimuli.

So it plain to see that post #266 is untenable. See below.




Your mental choice is the active capacity of your(human will)..

Hopefully this post help is all in understanding the issues at hand..

The real question is what motivates that active capicity of the will.

If we look to God, we say God has fee will, yet all his choices and decisions and action come from an out flowing of his nature... How do we know that? Simple! God can't lie. Even though we say he has free will, it is not in God's nature to lie, and nor will he. Who he is dictates the out-flowing of his will.

The same is true of man in that all our decisions and thought process derive from who we are, our nature, and any thought or action will be an out-flowing from the human nature.

The difference being is that God is Holy - man is sinfully wicked... Man's desires are evil desires...

His nature needs to be changed in order for those desires to be changed..man desperately needs a new heart.. This brings about new thoughts and decisions from a changed nature.

unless the heart is changed no man will choose God. His fallen nature will not allow it. He detests the things of God.. Infact he an enemy of God.. Read romans 1 and 2 for the plight of all men (who aren't saved).

Your entire post is absolutely spot on (according to the Bibles that I read and study).

Thank you!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Let's be honest here. You cannot dismiss the fact the Bible states Pharaoh hardened his heart to put forth your desire to prove humans cannot make their own choices. You have to examine all that is stated and not dismiss something that might challenge your own interpretation.

Don't take this as rude. Frankly, I was a little taken aback at your wording. I'm a straightforward person and I was surprised at what I see as your attempt to ignore what is actually stated regarding Pharaoh.

Say what? You're missing the point of what I'm trying to do. I'm not ignoring Scripture that clearly states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. But, I'm also not going to ignore the passage that clearly states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart . . . which you have yet to acknowledge.

Unfortunately, we've gone from being peaceful to something else.