Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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DavidTree said:
WAKE UP CALL = There is not one 'pre-trib rapture verse in the Scriptures.
Your post insinuates that there ARE verses that do show a pretrib rapture. Such a term would necessarily include a glorified trip to heaven.
I have been asking for such a verse for a long time. Please share the verse or verses that you have.
Thanks.
WAKE UP CALL = There is not one 'pre-trib rapture verse in the Scriptures.
Your post insinuates that there ARE verses that do show a pretrib rapture. Such a term would necessarily include a glorified trip to heaven.
I have been asking for such a verse for a long time. Please share the verse or verses that you have.
Thanks.
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Dear Brother John,
Pre-trib rapture never came out of the mouth of God and is built upon many a false statement such as: "The Body of Christ is nowhere to be found in Matthew ch24." = Nothing could be farther from the Truth.
The Body/Bride of Christ was with Him and asked Him of His Second Coming for them = His Body/His Elect/His Saints.
As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings.
“Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. - Matt 24:1-4
The Gospel is for His Elect which are those who believed on Him and His New Covenant Blood Sacrifice.
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the New Covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you. = Gospel of Salvation
"And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." - Acts ch10
"But we (Jews) believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we(Jews) shall be saved in the same manner as they.(Gentiles)”
And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written
After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’"
Acts ch15
Anyone who says that Matthew chapter 24 is not for BOTH Jew and Gentile in Christ is deceived by pre-trib error and is a false teacher whether they know it or not.
Brother John, it is in your BEST interest to turn away from such falsehood and believe solely on His Word.
Pre-trib rapture never came out of the mouth of God and is built upon many a false statement such as: "The Body of Christ is nowhere to be found in Matthew ch24." = Nothing could be farther from the Truth.
The Body/Bride of Christ was with Him and asked Him of His Second Coming for them = His Body/His Elect/His Saints.
As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings.
“Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. - Matt 24:1-4
The Gospel is for His Elect which are those who believed on Him and His New Covenant Blood Sacrifice.
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the New Covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you. = Gospel of Salvation
"And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." - Acts ch10
"But we (Jews) believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we(Jews) shall be saved in the same manner as they.(Gentiles)”
And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written
After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’"
Acts ch15
Anyone who says that Matthew chapter 24 is not for BOTH Jew and Gentile in Christ is deceived by pre-trib error and is a false teacher whether they know it or not.
Brother John, it is in your BEST interest to turn away from such falsehood and believe solely on His Word.
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Let me remind you about 2 tes 2
Paul say to gentile church in tesalonica
Second coming and rapture happen after man of sin reveal or gt
And Paul say don't let any body deceive you
In other word according Oaul pre rapture is deceive doctrine
( v 3 let no man deceive you)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Paul say to gentile church in tesalonica
Second coming and rapture happen after man of sin reveal or gt
And Paul say don't let any body deceive you
In other word according Oaul pre rapture is deceive doctrine
( v 3 let no man deceive you)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
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https://testallthings.com/2009/01/03/a-study-of-revelation-chapter-13-verse-18/
https://testallthings.com/2009/06/05/a-study-of-revelation-13/
Read all the links. If you are God's elect (God gave you the Holy Spirit) and you pray for understanding=you will understand it.
https://testallthings.com/2009/06/05/a-study-of-revelation-13/
Read all the links. If you are God's elect (God gave you the Holy Spirit) and you pray for understanding=you will understand it.
Oh man, I thought this was something juicy or crunchy, then I click it open, d'oh! Another triple six conspiracy? are you kidding me? Aren't you fed up with that stuff? What a disappointment.
Friend, dearly beloved, my fellow brother or sister, if you're really sincere and serious about the Mark and you genuinely wanna have a deep dive into this terrifying prophecy, here's a rule of thumb: use plain and easy verses to interpret the hard and vague ones. You wanna decode the Mark, go check out Deut. 6:8, the Shema prayer and 1 Kings 10:14, tribute of gold for Solomon. Any Mark theory that doesn't mention these two key references at all is a distraction and a waste of time. Might be entertaining and/or intriguing, but not biblically sound teaching.
Friend, dearly beloved, my fellow brother or sister, if you're really sincere and serious about the Mark and you genuinely wanna have a deep dive into this terrifying prophecy, here's a rule of thumb: use plain and easy verses to interpret the hard and vague ones. You wanna decode the Mark, go check out Deut. 6:8, the Shema prayer and 1 Kings 10:14, tribute of gold for Solomon. Any Mark theory that doesn't mention these two key references at all is a distraction and a waste of time. Might be entertaining and/or intriguing, but not biblically sound teaching.
It does not say he has 3.5 years. He tries to attack the woman twice, both periods were for 3.5 years but that is not the overall amount time he has since being cast out of heaven.
I never said that so the huge mistake is all yours.
We have not been discussing any of that. Please stick to the topic.
I never said that so the huge mistake is all yours.
We have not been discussing any of that. Please stick to the topic.
There's not two two periods of 3.5 years combined into 7 years, but only ONE period where the woman will be protected and nourished in the sanctuary prepared for her in Rev 12:6 and 12:14. That part was mentioned twice for emphesis to make sure you don't miss, that's very common throughout the whole bible. Don't just hang onto what you've been taught, read the chapter carefully and think independently.
You did say that the 7th trumpet is not the end, but in Rev 11:15-19 the kingdom is proclaimed, and 11:19 is describing the cosmic signs of his second coming.
That IS the topic, because all of these verses are describing the second coming from different perspectives. That's basic principle from Deuteronomy, that at least two witnesses are required to establish a claim, so it's actually necessary to corroborate with other verses.
You did say that the 7th trumpet is not the end, but in Rev 11:15-19 the kingdom is proclaimed, and 11:19 is describing the cosmic signs of his second coming.
That IS the topic, because all of these verses are describing the second coming from different perspectives. That's basic principle from Deuteronomy, that at least two witnesses are required to establish a claim, so it's actually necessary to corroborate with other verses.
No, two:
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Here she flees right after Christ ascended.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then there was war in heaven and the dragon is cast to the earth.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
This is definitely a reference to the tribulation, the short time he has. This is yet future while the earlier references to her fleeing is the past.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And he persecutes the woman a SECOND TIME which is related to the end times.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And only at this time does this woman again flee...
Has to be two different events
One verse is sufficient. How many times does bible say his feet will split the Mt of Olives in two?
You also are mis-defining what cherry picking is.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Here she flees right after Christ ascended.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then there was war in heaven and the dragon is cast to the earth.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
This is definitely a reference to the tribulation, the short time he has. This is yet future while the earlier references to her fleeing is the past.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And he persecutes the woman a SECOND TIME which is related to the end times.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And only at this time does this woman again flee...
Has to be two different events
One verse is sufficient. How many times does bible say his feet will split the Mt of Olives in two?
You also are mis-defining what cherry picking is.
Christ ALREADY ascended in 12:5, and in 12:6, the woman ALREADY fled into the wilderness for 3.5 years, so how is there a second time? You've got the basic setting wrong. The only difference is that since Satan couldn't touch her, he goes after her "offsprings", which is referring to all believers of Christ in 12:11-12.
FreeGrace2 said:
So how do you differentiate the 7th seal from the 7th bowl, with how great the similarity between them?
How does this explain the great similarity between them? Both judgments describe basically the same thing? How does perspective show that they are not the same thing?
You said in a previous post that the trumpet and bowl judgments were the same, and either said or implied that the seal judgments were different.
So how do you differentiate the 7th seal from the 7th bowl, with how great the similarity between them?
How does this explain the great similarity between them? Both judgments describe basically the same thing? How does perspective show that they are not the same thing?
You said in a previous post that the trumpet and bowl judgments were the same, and either said or implied that the seal judgments were different.
Member Omegatiome likes to leave a Red X because he/she has no Truth to share concerning the lie of pre-trib rapture.
Omegatime is a coward and will not come forth but rather hide behind a Red X.
If you are going to boast of 'pre-trib rapture' you better be able to show the word's coming from the Mouth of God.
If you are unable then you speak from the serpent/religion/falsehood.
PROVE from the Mouth of GOD your pre-trib rapture by answering Post #3,094
Omegatime is a coward and will not come forth but rather hide behind a Red X.
If you are going to boast of 'pre-trib rapture' you better be able to show the word's coming from the Mouth of God.
If you are unable then you speak from the serpent/religion/falsehood.
PROVE from the Mouth of GOD your pre-trib rapture by answering Post #3,094
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You aren't paying attention. The first time is BEFORE THE WAR IN HEAVEN. The second time is AFTER THE WAR IN HEAVEN.
It's two times.
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
You're not paying attention on what it really says in Rev. 12. Even though you slapped the whole chapter in here, you didn't read it carefully. Tell me, does it appear anywhere in this chapter that the woman somehow moved OUT of the wilderness while war in heaven is going on? As I said, she was ALREADY in that sanctuary. The WHOLE timespan of 3.5 years. 12:6 and 12:14 are the SAME. Before the war in heaven, Satan did NOT persecute the woman YET because at that point he was still in heaven.
Rev 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven; behold, a fiery red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
After he was cast out, he persecuted the woman from the OUTSIDE by attempting to drown her with a flood, while the woman is ALREADY inside.
Rev 12:15 So the serpent spewed out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
And since that didn't work, he went after the saints instead. And when is that? In the SAME 3.5 years!
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:5 ... and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.
And by the way, I use NKJV. Minor difference of wording could make a huge difference in understanding.
Rev 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven; behold, a fiery red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
After he was cast out, he persecuted the woman from the OUTSIDE by attempting to drown her with a flood, while the woman is ALREADY inside.
Rev 12:15 So the serpent spewed out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
And since that didn't work, he went after the saints instead. And when is that? In the SAME 3.5 years!
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:5 ... and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.
And by the way, I use NKJV. Minor difference of wording could make a huge difference in understanding.