Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

[FreeGrace2]

Believe in the original means obey.

No it doesn't.

From John 3:16 in biblehub.com -

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Please point out where you see "obey".

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

OK, from John 3:36 in biblehub.com -
apeitheó: to disobey
Original Word: ἀπειθέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apeitheó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o)
Definition: to disobey
Usage: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 544 apeithéō – literally, refuse to be persuaded (by the Lord). See 543 (apeitheia).

It means to refuse to believe. Literally.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

Obviously means to obey His command to believe in Him for salvation.




JPT[/QUOTE]

 

[Mem]

Please don't make this difficult. v.27 is a description of what His sheep DO, or ought to do. That's all.

Nothing in v.27 is what His sheep MUST DO to receive eternal life. See John 3:15,16,18, 36, 5:24, 6:47 for HOW to receive eternal life.

Sorry, I was inquiring on the question of how to be filled with the holy spirit and whether the answer is found in Ephesians 5, since the answer didn't seem to be forthcoming anytime soon within the conversation. I looked up the command and found "...be filled with the holy spirit,' in Ephesians 5:18 followed by verse 19's command to, "...Sing and make music in your hearts to the Lord, always giving thanks..."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry, I was inquiring on the question of how to be filled with the holy spirit and whether the answer is found in Ephesians 5, since the answer didn't seem to be forthcoming anytime soon within the conversation.

That does appear to be the case, since the other poster won't answer.

I looked up the command and found "...be filled with the holy spirit,' in Ephesians 5:18 followed by verse 19's command to, "...Sing and make music in your hearts to the Lord, always giving thanks..."

Right. These are commands.

How to obey the command to be filled requires several verses to get to the answer.

First, we know that sin breaks fellowship with the Lord, and confession is the means of restoring fellowship. 1 John 1, and esp v.9

Second, Psa 66:18 says the Lord does not listen to those who regard sin in their heart, which aligns with 1 john 1:9

Third, Jesus was asked to teach His disciples how to pray. After giving them a model prayer, He then said:
Luke 11:13 - If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

This verse only applied to the OT, since most believers weren't given the Holy Spirit. In the NT, EVERY believer is given the Spirit (indwelling).

Fourth, Eph 5:18 is a command; therefore the command is God's will for every believer.

Fifth, 1 John 5:14,15 tells us how to pray-
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

Green words tell us that He hears our prayers that are according to His will, such as Eph 5:18.
Red words refer to being in fellowship per 1 John 1:9 and confession of sin.
Blue words refer to the confidence of knowing that when our sins are confessed and we are cleansed and back in fellowship, and then we ask for the filling of the Holy Spirit, which is in accordance with His will for us, then we KNOW that we have the filling of the Spirit.

All that said, we also must know that believers are commanded to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and stop quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

So the filling of the Spirit isn't ongoing. The believer can lose the filling by grieving/quenching the Spirit.

 

[Mem]

That does appear to be the case, since the other poster won't answer.


Right. These are commands.

How to obey the command to be filled requires several verses to get to the answer.

First, we know that sin breaks fellowship with the Lord, and confession is the means of restoring fellowship. 1 John 1, and esp v.9

Second, Psa 66:18 says the Lord does not listen to those who regard sin in their heart, which aligns with 1 john 1:9

Third, Jesus was asked to teach His disciples how to pray. After giving them a model prayer, He then said:
Luke 11:13 - If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

This verse only applied to the OT, since most believers weren't given the Holy Spirit. In the NT, EVERY believer is given the Spirit (indwelling).

Fourth, Eph 5:18 is a command; therefore the command is God's will for every believer.

Fifth, 1 John 5:14,15 tells us how to pray-
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

Green words tell us that He hears our prayers that are according to His will, such as Eph 5:18.
Red words refer to being in fellowship per 1 John 1:9 and confession of sin.
Blue words refer to the confidence of knowing that when our sins are confessed and we are cleansed and back in fellowship, and then we ask for the filling of the Holy Spirit, which is in accordance with His will for us, then we KNOW that we have the filling of the Spirit.

All that said, we also must know that believers are commanded to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and stop quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

So the filling of the Spirit isn't ongoing. The believer can lose the filling by grieving/quenching the Spirit.

I have no trouble agreeing with any of that. It is possible that the understanding of the 'sealing' might misconstrue this somewhat. Some consider it similar to how one seals a jar, i.e. once filled always filled, while I think of it in terms of receiving a sort of mark of ownership such as a brand rather than as a wax seal on a letter that can be broken.

 

[Magenta]

1 John 10:27-28

 

[BroTan]

Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord

Paul said in (1 Cor. 15:1-2) (v.1) MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (v.2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Paul is telling you right here that you are saved by the gospel that he preached unto you if you keep it in memory. So what happens if you don’t keep it in memory? Then you have believed in vain you have believed for nothing that’s what vain means.

 

[Melach]

Gee Willikers, Mr Wilson. Since I'm already saved and my salvation can't be taken from me, then I can do any nefarious deed, no matter how sinful. And why shouldn't I pleasure myself with all that this world offers? After all I'm saved, so I can have both this world and heaven too!!!!!!!!!!! How great is that? What a deal!!!!

Nothing is beyond my wildest desire now, as Michael Jackson's song went, "Don't Stop Til You've Had Enough'. Thanks to the doctrine OSAS, I can have it all and heaven too!!!!!!!!!!!! All the debauchery, pleasures, and hate toward all those I despise.

if you want to just sin sin and sin. then probably you are not born again.

 

[Snacks]

Gee Willikers, Mr Wilson. Since I'm already saved and my salvation can't be taken from me, then I can do any nefarious deed, no matter how sinful. And why shouldn't I pleasure myself with all that this world offers? After all I'm saved, so I can have both this world and heaven too!!!!!!!!!!! How great is that? What a deal!!!!

Nothing is beyond my wildest desire now, as Michael Jackson's song went, "Don't Stop Til You've Had Enough'. Thanks to the doctrine OSAS, I can have it all and heaven too!!!!!!!!!!!! All the debauchery, pleasures, and hate toward all those I despise.

No love or understanding of God’s grace in the above post but rather bitterness, contempt and an extreme dislike for people who rejoice with humble hearts in God’s saving grace.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Agreed!

We are not saved by doing good works rather we do good works because we are saved and have God working in us, compelling and empowering us to do good works.



JPT

Yes, I agree. The point I was trying to make is even if we're saved and have Yahweh working in us we still have a choice. I've heard many OSAS believers say that if a person falls away they weren't saved to begin with. But if that's true, that it's impossible for a genuinely saved person to fall away, why does Paul here declare that he exhorted people to do deeds in keeping with repentance? Why didn't he say: "I declared to those who have repented and believed in the Lord that they can rest assured, you can now never fall away."

It's not just this passage but it's everywhere in the New Testament.

 

[Grandpa]

Ordained doesn’t imply predestination or election. Someone can not be God’s elect the first time they hear the gospel and then years later suddenly believe and then become God’s elect.

It’s entirely a choice to believe or reject the gospel otherwise there’d be no point to preach the gospel which Jesus commanded. When we test the scripture and test the spirits of what you’re saying, it doesn’t pass the smell test. 💩

You mean it doesn't pass the WISH test...

I wish scripture didn't say that so I am going to make up a bunch of bunk in my head to discredit it.

Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[Runningman]

You mean it doesn't pass the WISH test...

I wish scripture didn't say that so I am going to make up a bunch of bunk in my head to discredit it.

Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

“In Christ”
“In Him”
“In the beloved”

Was Saul (Paul) in Christ before the foundation of the world when he was murdering Christians with a clean conscience? When was Paul in Christ?

 

[Chester]

v.27 is a statement about what His sheep DO.

So is John 10:27 a statement about what His sheep _______________?
(a) do
(b) normally do
(c) will do
(d) sometimes do
(e) must do

You ruled out choice e. I think you have mentioned both (a) and (b) as correct answers. My answer is that all we know from this text is what it says: Jesus' sheep ongoingly hear and follow. (The word "ongoingly" is based on the Greek present tense here - which does have variant shades of meaning). I would say probably (a) is the simplest answer and probably (b) also has some merit. it might also be possible to argue for (d) as a correct answer. The text does not explicitly state either (c) or (e).

So then, is the person who is not hearing and following at all (0% of the time) Jesus' sheep (according to this verse)?

 

[Chester]

if you want to just sin sin and sin. then probably you are not born again.

So you are saying that a person who thinks they are saved, but finds that his flesh just wants to keep on sinning is not ever born again at all?!!!!

 

[Chester]

Is hearing and following a condition of being a sheep or is being a sheep a result of hearing and following?
Or does hearing and following indicate the state of being as a sheep?

Sometimes we make Scripture too theological instead of just taking it for what it says:

All John 10:27 says is that Jesus sheep are hearing His voice and they are following Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have no trouble agreeing with any of that. It is possible that the understanding of the 'sealing' might misconstrue this somewhat. Some consider it similar to how one seals a jar, i.e. once filled always filled, while I think of it in terms of receiving a sort of mark of ownership such as a brand rather than as a wax seal on a letter that can be broken.

Yet, v.14 tells us it is a GUARANTEE of our inheritance. So those who view the sealing of the Spirit as something that can be broken are badly mistaken.

Jesus said He would send the Comforter (Holy Spirit) who would be with us FOREVER. That's what the Spirit does in sealing the believer. He stays with them forever. That is eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord

You are adding works (human effort) to salvation.

The Holy Spirit seals the believer, which is a GUARANTEE of our inheritance as God's possession. Eph 1:13,14.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
v.27 is a statement about what His sheep DO.

So is John 10:27 a statement about what His sheep _______________?
(a) do
(b) normally do
(c) will do
(d) sometimes do
(e) must do

You ruled out choice e. I think you have mentioned both (a) and (b) as correct answers. My answer is that all we know from this text is what it says: Jesus' sheep ongoingly hear and follow.

You asked a great question. Thanks! You forgot one thing: (f) OUGHT TO DO.

My asnwer is b and f. Jesus was explaining what His sheep (believers) normally do or ought to do.

(The word "ongoingly" is based on the Greek present tense here - which does have variant shades of meaning). I would say probably (a) is the simplest answer and probably (b) also has some merit. it might also be possible to argue for (d) as a correct answer. The text does not explicitly state either (c) or (e).

Jesus' comment is a description of what they do or a policy statement of what they ought to do.

So then, is the person who is not hearing and following at all (0% of the time) Jesus' sheep (according to this verse)?

Well, that would be a sheep who OUGHT TO BE hearing and following. That's how this works.

No believer is sinless. Every sin is a time when we are NOT hearing and NOT following. So NO believer hears and follows 100% of the time anyway.

 

[Chester]

FreeGrace2 said:
v.27 is a statement about what His sheep DO.

You asked a great question. Thanks! You forgot one thing: (f) OUGHT TO DO.

My asnwer is b and f. Jesus was explaining what His sheep (believers) normally do or ought to do.


Jesus' comment is a description of what they do or a policy statement of what they ought to do.


Well, that would be a sheep who OUGHT TO BE hearing and following. That's how this works.

No believer is sinless. Every sin is a time when we are NOT hearing and NOT following. So NO believer hears and follows 100% of the time anyway.

Oh, I agree that this could be seen as "ought" to: but I think if that is all it is, that is a miserable way to live: I ought to do good deeds, but I don't have to do good deeds, or as my Dad used to say - "you don't have to, if you want to . . .!" -- Oh that advice still makes me grit my teeth . . . LOL!

But I am glad we do not have to live the Christian life that way: Christ does not require us to do good deeds so that we stay saved, or so that people will not accuse of never being saved to begin with.

The Christian life can be lived full of joy and victory simply out of the sheer pleasure of the depth of a relationship with our Redeemer King and Friend.

I never want to live my Christian life out of a policy statement of what I ought to do. I live out of what Christ has done for me and I rejoice over the opportunity to serve Him with all of my life and being! I do not have to keep trusting Him, nor do I have to keep doing good works, because He does not force me to follow Him or to be His, but I will keep on believing Him because He has saved me from destruction and brought me out of the miserable pit of control by the flesh and the Devil. PTL! I will love my Lord and Saviour forever!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, I agree that this could be seen as "ought" to: but I think if that is all it is, that is a miserable way to live: I ought to do good deeds, but I don't have to do good deeds, or as my Dad used to say - "you don't have to, if you want to . . .!" -- Oh that advice still makes me grit my teeth . . . LOL!

You may be forgetting one thing: the promise of God's discipline, which, according to Heb 12:11 is painful.

God motivates His children in 2 ways;
reward for obedience
punishment for disobedience

But I am glad we do not have to live the Christian life that way:

Exactly! We ought to live the Christian life the right way.

Christ does not require us to do good deeds so that we stay saved, or so that people will not accuse of never being saved to begin with.

Correct!

The Christian life can be lived full of joy and victory simply out of the sheer pleasure of the depth of a relationship with our Redeemer King and Friend.

It does require NOT grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit, but rather, being filled with the Spirit.

I never want to live my Christian life out of a policy statement of what I ought to do.

Don't be offended by "policy". Every business has a policy, or set of policies. So does God. They are found in all the various commands.

I live out of what Christ has done for me and I rejoice over the opportunity to serve Him with all of my life and being! I do not have to keep trusting Him, nor do I have to keep doing good works, because He does not force me to follow Him or to be His, but I will keep on believing Him because He has saved me from destruction and brought me out of the miserable pit of control by the flesh and the Devil. PTL! I will love my Lord and Saviour forever!

Amen!!

 

[Snacks]

Oh, I agree that this could be seen as "ought" to: but I think if that is all it is, that is a miserable way to live: I ought to do good deeds, but I don't have to do good deeds, or as my Dad used to say - "you don't have to, if you want to . . .!" -- Oh that advice still makes me grit my teeth . . . LOL!

But I am glad we do not have to live the Christian life that way: Christ does not require us to do good deeds so that we stay saved, or so that people will not accuse of never being saved to begin with.

The Christian life can be lived full of joy and victory simply out of the sheer pleasure of the depth of a relationship with our Redeemer King and Friend.

I never want to live my Christian life out of a policy statement of what I ought to do. I live out of what Christ has done for me and I rejoice over the opportunity to serve Him with all of my life and being! I do not have to keep trusting Him, nor do I have to keep doing good works, because He does not force me to follow Him or to be His, but I will keep on believing Him because He has saved me from destruction and brought me out of the miserable pit of control by the flesh and the Devil. PTL! I will love my Lord and Saviour forever!

So you maintain your salvation through works?