Institutionalizion of the Church

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

50 million is an absolutely bogus and ridiculous figure, the stuff of wild Anti-Catholic polemics with no basis in actual history.

"That would mean that the Church killed as many people as the Black Death (Bubonic Plague), which wiped out about a third to half the population. I replied: “Please tell me the name of reputable historians who assert such an absolutely ridiculous figure.”

He said that he knew of an internet article that he couldn't locate, by one David A. Plaisted: who turned out to be a professor of computer science, not an academic historian at all. But when pressed, my fiend offered no actual historian to back up his assertion and quickly descended (as so often in these sorts of “discussions”) to mere insults and evasive tactics. Before I was banned from his site, I produced for him – upon being challenged to do so – two (non-Catholic) professors of history with vastly different opinions.

Edward Peters, from the University of Pennsylvania, is the author of Inquisition (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989). Henry Kamen, a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society and professor at the University of Wisconsin – Madison, wrote The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1998).

These two books are in the forefront of an emerging, very different perspective on the Inquisitions: an understanding that they were exponentially less inclined to issue death penalties than had previously been commonly assumed, and also quite different in character and even essence than the longstanding anti-Catholic stereotypes would have us believe.

On page 87 of his book, Dr. Peters states: “The best estimate is that around 3000 death sentences were carried out in Spain by Inquisitorial verdict between 1550 and 1800, a far smaller number than that in comparable secular courts.”

Likewise, Dr. Kamen states in his book: Taking into account all the tribunals of Spain up to about 1530, it is unlikely that more than two thousand people were executed for heresy by the Inquisition. (p. 60)
. . . it is clear that for most of its existence that Inquisition was far from being a juggernaut of death either in intention or in capability. . . . it would seem that during the 16th and 17th centuries fewer than three people a year were executed in the whole of the Spanish monarchy from Sicily to Peru, certainly a lower rate than in any provincial court of justice in Spain or anywhere else in Europe. (p. 203)"

Taken from: https://www.ncregister.com/blog/were-50-million-people-really-killed-in-the-inquisition God Bless.

 

[ResidentAlien]

50 million is an absolutely bogus and ridiculous figure, the stuff of wild Anti-Catholic polemics with no basis in actual history.

Spoken like a true Catholic. I wouldn't expect anything else.

 

[ResidentAlien]

We could argue numbers all day long but the fact remains that the Catholic "church" has murdered a lot of people, and for no other reason than simply disagreeing with them; or, for other crimes which people were totally innocent of.

Not just murder, but some of the most horrific forms of torture were invented by demonic minds to make their victims suffer in unimaginable ways. They made Hitler look like a choir boy in comparison.

Yup, sound like something Jesus would do.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Anti-Catholics selectively ignore that Protestant Churches also did sinful things in the past.

They took this single verse out of context: “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” (Exo 22:18)

Such OT verses don't apply in this dispensation, but many in those days misunderstood this.

Today, all Christians reject such practices (like "burning witches" etc), so it's a dead horse.

"4. Scotland

Philip Hughes informs us that:

• "In Scotland, 1560-1600 (then Calvinist), some 8,000 women were burnt as witches - the total population was around 600,000." (45:273)

This is actually, incredibly, 1.3% of the population! Projecting these rates to the United States, which had a population of 231 million in 1980, 3.07 million witches would have been executed from 1940 to 1980, or roughly the whole population of Chicago! ..

• "In Britain 30,000 went to the stake for witchcraft; in Protestant Germany the figure was 100,000 . . . If the Inquisition establishes the falsity of Catholicism, the witch trials establish the falsity of Protestantism." (4:292,298)"

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm

In those days, Christians of all denominations did not regard these things as wrong. Today, we all do.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Anti-Catholics selectively ignore that Protestant Churches also did sinful things in the past.

I don't deny other groups have done bad things, but that doesn't let Catholicism off the hook. I'm not Protestant by the way.

A simple apology by the pope is lip service. You can't just say something then go on with business as usual. The only way Catholcism can atone for its crimes is to repent and cry out to the Lord for forgiveness; acknowledge they're Christian in name only; stop calling themselves Christians or a church; admit that they've corrupted true Christianity; that they've led people astray into pagan idolatry; that the whole thing is sham from beginning to end; take all their wealth and give it to abuse victims and other worthwhile causes; and preferably disband entirely. If they did that, and were sincere, it might atone for Catholicism's sins.

 

[Inquisitor]

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/estimates.htm

There's also a link here if you want to download a PDF of the same article.

http://www.noiseofthunderradio.com/articles/2011/11/14/50-million-protestants-killed.html

50,000,000 may be a little high for the Inquisition proper; but if you figure in all people murdered by the Catholic "church" since the beginning of popery in 606, it would be at least that high.

The Spanish Inquisition was the largest and the longest running Inquisition. If we can estimate the number of executions during the Spanish Inquisition. Then we can with some probability generate a rough estimate, of the wider death toll from the other Inquisitions.

So, if we limit the discussion to official executions during the Spanish Inquisition, experts today seem to place the total number in a range between about 3,000 and 10,000. A further 100,000 to 125,000 probably died in prison as a result of torture and maltreatment, but these went largely unrecorded in the records of the Inquisition. (The separate Inquisition in neighboring Portugal resulted in fewer deaths) [Pérez, 2006, p173 and Rummel, 2009, p62]. Henry Kamen is one of the world's leading experts on the Spanish Inquisition. He concludes that: We can in all probability accept the estimate, made on the basis of available documentation, that a maximum of three thousand persons may have suffered death during the entire history of the tribunal. [Kamen, 2014, p253]

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes, I hate the Catholicism; I never said otherwise. I love the people who are caught in its clutches and have been led down the wrong road. But I hate everything that institution stands for: The way it has corrupted the truth; its lust for power; its open mockery of Yahweh and Christ Jesus; its arrogance; its lies; its greed; its murders; its sexual crimes.

I think it was sometime in the early 2000s the pope apologized for all the ills perpetrated by Catholicism in the past; but this was nothing more than a transparent bid to gain credibility so it could continue to push its false unity plan. They think a simple apology will make people forget.

The Holocaust can't hold a candle to the Inquisition. The Holocaust: Some 6,000,000, give or take, over a few years. The Inquisition: 50,000,000 over 500 years.

Here is another article on the statistics from historians that studied the available records.

Beginning in the 19th century, historians have gradually compiled statistics drawn from the surviving court records, from which estimates have been calculated by adjusting the recorded number of convictions by the average rate of document loss for each time period. Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras studied the records of the Spanish Inquisition, which list 44,674 cases of which 826 resulted in executions in person and 778 in effigy (i.e. a straw dummy was burned in place of the person).[59] William Monter estimated there were 1000 executions between 1530–1630 and 250 between 1630 and 1730.[60] Jean-Pierre Dedieu studied the records of Toledo's tribunal, which put 12,000 people on trial.[61] For the period prior to 1530, Henry Kamen estimated there were about 2,000 executions in all of Spain's tribunals.[62] Italian Renaissance history professor and Inquisition expert Carlo Ginzburg had his doubts about using statistics to reach a judgment about the period. "In many cases, we don't have the evidence, the evidence has been lost," said Ginzburg.[63] (wikipedia)

 

[Inquisitor]

Anti-Catholics selectively ignore that Protestant Churches also did sinful things in the past.

They took this single verse out of context: “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” (Exo 22:18)

Such OT verses don't apply in this dispensation, but many in those days misunderstood this.

Today, all Christians reject such practices (like "burning witches" etc), so it's a dead horse.

"4. Scotland

Philip Hughes informs us that:

• "In Scotland, 1560-1600 (then Calvinist), some 8,000 women were burnt as witches - the total population was around 600,000." (45:273)

This is actually, incredibly, 1.3% of the population! Projecting these rates to the United States, which had a population of 231 million in 1980, 3.07 million witches would have been executed from 1940 to 1980, or roughly the whole population of Chicago! ..

• "In Britain 30,000 went to the stake for witchcraft; in Protestant Germany the figure was 100,000 . . . If the Inquisition establishes the falsity of Catholicism, the witch trials establish the falsity of Protestantism." (4:292,298)"

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm

In those days, Christians of all denominations did not regard these things as wrong. Today, we all do.

The United States was populated by various religious groups, escaping fierce persecution in England and in Europe. The Quakers would be a good example of religious folk, fleeing Protestant England and that started in the Seventeenth century. Protestant England claimed freedom in belief and practice, but brutally persecuted other religious groups, themselves.

It is unacceptable for Protestants to point their finger at the Catholics, when they committed the very same persecutions.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. A remarkable act of hypocrisy by the Protestant Church.

Do not make the fatal mistake of thinking, well I do not attend a Catholic or a Protestant church. We are talking about large Christian churches, powerful Christian organizations. Which possessed state power, profound government power, over the populations in many countries. So of course, they abused that power.

Are we a different people, a holy people, to those Christian folk in those previous centuries?

 

[wattie]

Please cite your historical references for the 50million, thanks.

Something to understand about the writers of church history: from John T Christian:

Regarding baptistic churches from early church times--

'...the representations of the Baptists were often made by enemies who did not scruple, when such a course suited their purpose, to blacken character; and hence the testimony from such sources must be received with discrimination and much allowance made for many statements; in some instances vigilant and sustained attempts were made to destroy every document relating to these people...' A History of the Baptists (Volume 1) John T Christian, page 3.

Now understand that John T Christian is calling groups such as the Waldenses and Paulicians as baptists. I know many write that the baptists began in the 1500s, but is the baptistic teaching from the 1500s on.. or does it extend far earlier through these groups such as the Waldenses and Paulicians?

But getting to the 50,000,000 number:

From the Trail of Blood booklet: By J.M Carroll:

Cardinal Hosius (Catholic,A.D.1524), President of the Council of Trent:
"Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pages 112, 113.)

Cardinal Hosius was indirectly referring to the baptists being around since 300 AD ish!

Mosheim (Lutheran): "Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, there lay secreted in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of modern Dutch Baptists."

Edinburg Cyclopedia (Presbyterian): "It must have already occurred to our readers that the Baptists are the same sect of Christians that were formerly described as Ana-Baptists. Indeed this seems to have been their leading principle from the time of Tertullian to the present time."

The time of Tertullian-- that's only around 50 years after the death of the apostle John according to the Trail of Blood.

So.... the length of time of the persecution of these kind of churches through church history is into over 1000 years.. and that is why the 50,000,000 number is come to.

There are problems with this in that many different types of churches get put together under the one label as ana-baptist or baptist.. and not all would definitely be pure in the faith. So the 50,000,000 number may be greatly over-estimated.

The caveat to this though is the loss of records of the persecuted churches.. that may add large amounts of people to the number.

The key thing though is that it is true that a very large amount of independent christian churches were grievously and barbarically persecuted by the RCC and also by some of the reformers.

 

[Inquisitor]

Something to understand about the writers of church history: from John T Christian:

Regarding baptistic churches from early church times--

'...the representations of the Baptists were often made by enemies who did not scruple, when such a course suited their purpose, to blacken character; and hence the testimony from such sources must be received with discrimination and much allowance made for many statements; in some instances vigilant and sustained attempts were made to destroy every document relating to these people...' A History of the Baptists (Volume 1) John T Christian, page 3.

Now understand that John T Christian is calling groups such as the Waldenses and Paulicians as baptists. I know many write that the baptists began in the 1500s, but is the baptistic teaching from the 1500s on.. or does it extend far earlier through these groups such as the Waldenses and Paulicians?

But getting to the 50,000,000 number:

From the Trail of Blood booklet: By J.M Carroll:

Cardinal Hosius (Catholic,A.D.1524), President of the Council of Trent:
"Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pages 112, 113.)

Cardinal Hosius was indirectly referring to the baptists being around since 300 AD ish!

Mosheim (Lutheran): "Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, there lay secreted in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of modern Dutch Baptists."

Edinburg Cyclopedia (Presbyterian): "It must have already occurred to our readers that the Baptists are the same sect of Christians that were formerly described as Ana-Baptists. Indeed this seems to have been their leading principle from the time of Tertullian to the present time."

The time of Tertullian-- that's only around 50 years after the death of the apostle John according to the Trail of Blood.

So.... the length of time of the persecution of these kind of churches through church history is into over 1000 years.. and that is why the 50,000,000 number is come to.

There are problems with this in that many different types of churches get put together under the one label as ana-baptist or baptist.. and not all would definitely be pure in the faith. So the 50,000,000 number may be greatly over-estimated.

The caveat to this though is the loss of records of the persecuted churches.. that may add large amounts of people to the number.

The key thing though is that it is true that a very large amount of independent christian churches were grievously and barbarically persecuted by the RCC and also by some of the reformers.

The real issue is that the Inquisitions followed the rule of the law, in both the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Historians have some of the court records from these Inquisitions. Of course, sentencing someone to death under an Inquisition took considerable time. Much like the legal process today.

It would be grossly incorrect to claim, that any specific Inquisition could conduct more than say 50 trials a year.

Often, from Inquisition court records, penance was the punishment handed down to the guilty party.

The death penalty was not often the prescribed penalty.

The Inquisition relied more on striking terror and fear into the hearts of these heretical regions.

Many European nations never even had an Inquisition occur in their countries.

I would avoid listening to any church organization commenting on the Inquisitions, the historians study the historical evidence.

As for persecution of Christians under some denominational banner, that's outside the scope of the Inquisitions.

 

[Mission21]

The United States was populated by various religious groups, escaping fierce persecution in England and in Europe. The Quakers would be a good example of religious folk, fleeing Protestant England and that started in the Seventeenth century

Good point.
----
Many of early settlers came to North America..
- to escape persecution..from 'State & Church Establishment.'
---
'Separation of Church & State' issue has been ongoing/continuing..
- in United States.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

The United States was populated by various religious groups, escaping fierce persecution in England and in Europe. The Quakers would be a good example of religious folk, fleeing Protestant England and that started in the Seventeenth century. Protestant England claimed freedom in belief and practice, but brutally persecuted other religious groups, themselves.

It is unacceptable for Protestants to point their finger at the Catholics, when they committed the very same persecutions.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. A remarkable act of hypocrisy by the Protestant Church.

Do not make the fatal mistake of thinking, well I do not attend a Catholic or a Protestant church. We are talking about large Christian churches, powerful Christian organizations. Which possessed state power, profound government power, over the populations in many countries. So of course, they abused that power.

Are we a different people, a holy people, to those Christian folk in those previous centuries?

Hi Inquisitor. Thank you for your fair perspective.

Before we think Church History, both Catholic and Protestant, is all doom and gloom, I would recommend we read or reread two great books, one Catholic and one Protestant, that document the Great Accomplishments of Christianity, when Christians followed Christ better: https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280 and https://www.amazon.in/Christianity-...anity+changed+the+world&qid=1654440369&sr=8-3

Charities, Orphanages, Schools, Universities, Social Services and a Prosperous and Successful Civilization in Christian Europe. That is the overall legacy of Christianity for over a 1000 years after Constantine's conversion. Here and there, a few mistakes were made, to be sure, on all sides, Catholic, Protestant and Atheistic/Agnostic (witness the violence of the French Revolution for e.g. "the French Revolution marked the first deliberate ideological effort by a government to completely erase all religion from society. The scale of the carnage was staggering, especially in the counter-revolt of the Vendée. By the time the persecution of Christians ended with Napoleon’s Concordat of 1801, hundreds of thousands of Catholics had been massacred, thousands of priests executed, and churches throughout France were desecrated or destroyed." https://catholicvote.org/23-persecutions-that-failed-to-destroy-christianity/) But in the course of time, these were duly corrected. I don't believe this is the accurate way to judge Constantine's legacy at all.

Most of the Reformers seem to have forgotten that all of Europe was Christian at the time of the Reformation. How did this happen? It happened through the Missionary Activity of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church sent St. Patrick to Ireland, and Ireland was won to Jesus Christ and entered His Church. The Catholic Church sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to England, with 40 monks, and in time, England came to Christ and His Church. A similar story repeats with St. Remy in France and St. Boniface in Germany. Indeed, in most about every European Country. Anti-Catholics who hate the Catholic Church scarcely if ever mention these important historical facts.

God Bless.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

I will mention one other little known fact about a Catholic Colony in America, which was the first to practice Religious Liberty/Tolerance. From the link given earlier:

"

8. Catholic Maryland: The First Tolerant American Colony​

A. Patrick O'Hare

• "Catholics . . . were the first in America to proclaim and to practice civil and religious liberty . . . The colony established by Lord Baltimore in Maryland granted civil and religious liberty to all who professed different beliefs . . . At that very time the Puritans of New England and the Episcopalians of Virginia were busily engaged in persecuting their brother Protestants for consciences' sakes and the former were . . . hanging `witches'." (50:300-01)

B. Martin Marty (P)

• "Baltimore . . . welcomed, among other English people, even the Catholic-hating Puritans (8) . . . In January of 1691 . . . the new regime brought hard times for Catholics as the Protestants closed their church, forbade them to teach in public . . . but . . . the little outpost of practical Catholic tolerance had left its mark of promise on the land." (9)

C. John Tracy Ellis

• "For the first time in history . . . all churches would be tolerated, and . . . none would be the agent of the government . . . Catholics and Protestants side by side on terms of equality and toleration unknown in the mother country . . . The effort proved vain; for . . . the Puritan element . . . October, 1654, repealed the Act of Toleration and outlawed the Catholics . . . condemning ten of them to death, four of whom were executed . . . From . . . 1718 down to the outbreak of the Revolution, the Catholics of Maryland were cut off from all participation in public life, to say nothing of the enactments against their religious services and . . . schools for Catholic instruction . . . During the half-century the Catholics had governed Maryland they had not been guilty of a single act of religious oppression." (10)"

 

[arthurfleminger]

We could argue numbers all day long but the fact remains that the Catholic "church" has murdered a lot of people, and for no other reason than simply disagreeing with them; or, for other crimes which people were totally innocent of.

Not just murder, but some of the most horrific forms of torture were invented by demonic minds to make their victims suffer in unimaginable ways. They made Hitler look like a choir boy in comparison.

Yup, sound like something Jesus would do.

Resident, let's not overlook the fact that we Protestants also have a long history of 'Inquisitions', they are easily researchable on line if you are truly interested in inquisitions.

Things like the Salem witch trials and don't forget, one of our recent Protestant inquisitions occurred right here in the USA, over a period of many decades, during your and my lifetime. I'm sure you're familiar with 'Our own White Christian Brotherhood' of the Ku Klux Klan that was prevalent throughout the North and South for about 100 years after the Civil War. They controlled politics in most Southern and many Northern States. And our 'White Christian Brotherhood', made up completely of our Protestant brothers and sisters conducted murderous campaigns of hatred toward blacks, Catholics, Jews, and immigrants. Why did you fail to mention this since you are so interested in church murders/atrocities. The KKK even resorted to leaving bombs in black churches and schools.

And there are many more such examples, easily researchable.

You're not pointing the finger of blame at some and turning a blind eye toward others, are you? And, if you are, at what store do you buy your 'horse bliners' from?

 

[arthurfleminger]

Resident, let's not overlook the fact that we Protestants also have a long history of 'Inquisitions', they are easily researchable on line if you are truly interested in inquisitions.

Things like the Salem witch trials and don't forget, one of our recent Protestant inquisitions occurred right here in the USA, over a period of many decades, during your and my lifetime. I'm sure you're familiar with 'Our own White Christian Brotherhood' of the Ku Klux Klan that was prevalent throughout the North and South for about 100 years after the Civil War. They controlled politics in most Southern and many Northern States. And our 'White Christian Brotherhood', made up completely of our Protestant brothers and sisters conducted murderous campaigns of hatred toward blacks, Catholics, Jews, and immigrants. Why did you fail to mention this since you are so interested in church murders/atrocities. The KKK even resorted to leaving bombs in black churches and schools.

And there are many more such examples, easily researchable.

You're not pointing the finger of blame at some and turning a blind eye toward others, are you? And, if you are, at what store do you buy your 'horse bliners' from?

And let's not forget about our favorite Church reformer, Martin Luther. He hated the Jews so much that he wrote out a blueprint for their destruction and elimination/murder. He didn't live to see the results of the influence of his work, "The Jews and Their Lies" But Hitler and his baboons often cite Luther's thoughts as justification for the murders of many millions of jews, men/women/children in the most horrific of means. Martin Luther - "The Jews & Their Lies" (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

PS. Take your horseblinders back to the store and try and get a refund, but of course if you've been wearing them for years it's probably too late.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Were the Jew/Catholic/Black/immigrant hating Ku Klux Klan really a Protestant group bent on murder? You bet they were!!!!!!!!!

History, the KKK, and Christianity – Brewminate: A Bold Blend of News and Ideas

 

[wattie]

Hi Inquisitor. Thank you for your fair perspective.

Before we think Church History, both Catholic and Protestant, is all doom and gloom, I would recommend we read or reread two great books, one Catholic and one Protestant, that document the Great Accomplishments of Christianity, when Christians followed Christ better: https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280 and https://www.amazon.in/Christianity-...anity+changed+the+world&qid=1654440369&sr=8-3

Charities, Orphanages, Schools, Universities, Social Services and a Prosperous and Successful Civilization in Christian Europe. That is the overall legacy of Christianity for over a 1000 years after Constantine's conversion. Here and there, a few mistakes were made, to be sure, on all sides, Catholic, Protestant and Atheistic/Agnostic (witness the violence of the French Revolution for e.g. "the French Revolution marked the first deliberate ideological effort by a government to completely erase all religion from society. The scale of the carnage was staggering, especially in the counter-revolt of the Vendée. By the time the persecution of Christians ended with Napoleon’s Concordat of 1801, hundreds of thousands of Catholics had been massacred, thousands of priests executed, and churches throughout France were desecrated or destroyed." https://catholicvote.org/23-persecutions-that-failed-to-destroy-christianity/) But in the course of time, these were duly corrected. I don't believe this is the accurate way to judge Constantine's legacy at all.

Most of the Reformers seem to have forgotten that all of Europe was Christian at the time of the Reformation. How did this happen? It happened through the Missionary Activity of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church sent St. Patrick to Ireland, and Ireland was won to Jesus Christ and entered His Church. The Catholic Church sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to England, with 40 monks, and in time, England came to Christ and His Church. A similar story repeats with St. Remy in France and St. Boniface in Germany. Indeed, in most about every European Country. Anti-Catholics who hate the Catholic Church scarcely if ever mention these important historical facts.

God Bless.

Yeah, most social institutions today were originally formed by christians back in the day

 

[arthurfleminger]

And let's not forget about our favorite Church reformer, Martin Luther. He hated the Jews so much that he wrote out a blueprint for their destruction and elimination/murder. He didn't live to see the results of the influence of his work, "The Jews and Their Lies" But Hitler and his baboons often cite Luther's thoughts as justification for the murders of many millions of jews, men/women/children in the most horrific of means. Martin Luther - "The Jews & Their Lies" (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

PS. Take your horseblinders back to the store and try and get a refund, but of course if you've been wearing them for years it's probably too late.

Wait a minute!!!!!! Was Martin Luther really guilty for the deaths of millions of Jews during Germany's Nazi era, after all he died centuries before Hitler came to power. Let's look and see.

Martin Luther is such a towering figure in German history that it’s no surprise Adolf Hitler’s Third Reich exploited his name whenever it could. Hitler used Luther's hatred of the Jews and Luther's anti Jewish propaganda to justify the murder of millions of Jews. You betcha, Luther was a hater, guilty as sin. He outlined the way to massacre the Jews years down the road. The Nazis Exploited Martin Luther’s Legacy. This Berlin Exhibit Highlights How. | Sojourners

 

[wattie]

Hi Inquisitor. Thank you for your fair perspective.

Before we think Church History, both Catholic and Protestant, is all doom and gloom, I would recommend we read or reread two great books, one Catholic and one Protestant, that document the Great Accomplishments of Christianity, when Christians followed Christ better: https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280 and https://www.amazon.in/Christianity-...anity+changed+the+world&qid=1654440369&sr=8-3

Charities, Orphanages, Schools, Universities, Social Services and a Prosperous and Successful Civilization in Christian Europe. That is the overall legacy of Christianity for over a 1000 years after Constantine's conversion. Here and there, a few mistakes were made, to be sure, on all sides, Catholic, Protestant and Atheistic/Agnostic (witness the violence of the French Revolution for e.g. "the French Revolution marked the first deliberate ideological effort by a government to completely erase all religion from society. The scale of the carnage was staggering, especially in the counter-revolt of the Vendée. By the time the persecution of Christians ended with Napoleon’s Concordat of 1801, hundreds of thousands of Catholics had been massacred, thousands of priests executed, and churches throughout France were desecrated or destroyed." https://catholicvote.org/23-persecutions-that-failed-to-destroy-christianity/) But in the course of time, these were duly corrected. I don't believe this is the accurate way to judge Constantine's legacy at all.

Most of the Reformers seem to have forgotten that all of Europe was Christian at the time of the Reformation. How did this happen? It happened through the Missionary Activity of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church sent St. Patrick to Ireland, and Ireland was won to Jesus Christ and entered His Church. The Catholic Church sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to England, with 40 monks, and in time, England came to Christ and His Church. A similar story repeats with St. Remy in France and St. Boniface in Germany. Indeed, in most about every European Country. Anti-Catholics who hate the Catholic Church scarcely if ever mention these important historical facts.

God Bless.

Most of Europe being christian at the time of the reformation? Well.. what did it mean to be christian? Is that being defined by the RCC?

Don't forget the ana-baptists. They were called heretics by the RCC but the majority practiced biblically sound beliefs and attempted to preserve the pure faith through history before the reformers and seperate from the RCC.

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't deny other groups have done bad things, but that doesn't let Catholicism off the hook. I'm not Protestant by the way.

A simple apology by the pope is lip service. You can't just say something then go on with business as usual. The only way Catholcism can atone for its crimes is to repent and cry out to the Lord for forgiveness; acknowledge they're Christian in name only; stop calling themselves Christians or a church; admit that they've corrupted true Christianity; that they've led people astray into pagan idolatry; that the whole thing is sham from beginning to end; take all their wealth and give it to abuse victims and other worthwhile causes; and preferably disband entirely. If they did that, and were sincere, it might atone for Catholicism's sins.

If you are not a Protestant, why are you so opposed to the Catholic Church?

Protestantism is a form of Christianity that originated with the 16th-century Reformation,[a] a movement against what its followers perceived to be errors in the Catholic Church.[1] (wikipedia)