Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Goliath]

Evmur said:
I've highlighted all the choices believers are able to make. v.16 is the summary. Paul lays out the point: when you OFFER yourselves ( a choice) to someone as slaves. Then the choice: slaves to sin, or slaves to obedience.

All this proves that man has free will. The freedom to choose between available options, which Paul laid out clearly.

Free choice...which is what Paul is talking about, does not mean we have free will.
If it did...the husband would not need to die...
Do you not know, brothers and sisters —for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. (Romans 7:1-2)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free choice...which is what Paul is talking about, does not mean we have free will.

Sure it does. But many people have a false view of what free will is. It is only freedom of choice.

But calvinists, who don't like the concept that man is free to believe the gospel apart from God's forceful intervention, come up with a phony description of free will, and use words like "has the power to..." as if free will has a power to do things.

Free will is a free choice between available options. When calvinists are told that, they deny it because it can't be disproven, and it actually totally common sense. And free will is clearly shown in Romans 6.

If it did...the husband would not need to die...
Do you not know, brothers and sisters —for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. (Romans 7:1-2)

I don't understand your claim about the husband in regard to this passage.

God instituted marriage. And said it would be a permanent relationship. That is what the example is about.

However, we all know that Moses gave the Jews "divorce". Do you know why? Jesus told the Jews that Moses said their hearts were hard.

That's why he allowed divorce.

Calvinists have a distorted view of what free will is. And according to their theology, they have to hold onto that view in order to keep their system intact.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Hello again...Well, I do disagree that we're still under the Old Covenant in any way.

Hi, do you believe the OC and the Ten Commandments are interchangeable in Scripture?

I am sorry if I've offended you somehow.
God Bless...

Not offended at all, friend! BTW, I'm willing to take instruction from anyone as long as they're staying in the Bible

 

[Phoneman-777]

Sabbath is mostly disregarded, compared to the other nine.

so true!

 

[Phoneman-777]

Your proclaiming the law.

Is that a bad thing?

"Blessed are they which do HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they might have right to the Tree of Life and may enter into the gates to the city." - Revelation 22:14 KJV​

Not once in the New Testament is the phrase, 'ten commandments', even mentioned, by the way.

What is mentioned are the Ten Commandments themselves - every one, including the Sabbath in Hebrews 4:9 Lamsa's Peshitta: "It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath."

Sin is also transgression of the law according to John.

True

The law is 613 laws plus the law given within the prophets.

Paul says the "law of commandments contained in ordinances" - which refers to the ceremonial law ONLY - has been abolished. The Ten Commandments which came directly from the hand of God "stand fast forever and ever" according to Psalms 111:7-8 KJV.

If you are under the law, then you cannot transgress any of the law of Moses.

The Law of Moses was nailed to the Cross and is why we can ignore bringing a lamb for sacrifice, Passover observance, circumcision, etc...the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever" which is why it will ALWAYS be wrong to kill, lie, worship other gods, blaspheme, etc. It's really that simple.

You can't go through life obeying one law and breaking ten other laws. You need to decide whether you are under the law or not.

We are required to keep the Ten Commandments ("for this is the whole duty of man" says Solomon) but the Law of Moses may be safely ignored.

 

[epicnerpmada]

So...John is wrong?
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
(1 John 3:9-10)

1.My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2.He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3.We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4.Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

8.Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. 9.Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10.Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11.But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.
1 John 2:1‭-‬4‭, ‬8‭-‬11 NIV

No John is not wrong, sometimes the Greek is a bit different than the English, the way 1 John 3 9-10 is describing sin is repetitive and constant. A willful ignorance. We all slip up, we all sin. But do we keep the most important commandment? Loving God first and loving your fellow man? In which all commandments are fulfilled.

 

[Goliath]

I don't understand your claim about the husband in regard to this passage.

In (Romans 7:1-3) Paul uses marriage as an example of to why we must die to sin, and what causes that death, as seen in verses (4-6).

(1-3) Do you not know, brothers and sisters —for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man....... (4-6) So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:1-6)

 

[Goliath]

No John is not wrong, sometimes the Greek is a bit different than the English, the way 1 John 3 9-10 is describing sin is repetitive and constant. A willful ignorance. We all slip up, we all sin. But do we keep the most important commandment? Loving God first and loving your fellow man? In which all commandments are fulfilled.

Well Good...I thought you believed John was wrong.
So if Johns not wrong, you believe the people who translated the Greek into the English language, just translated it wrong?
Curious to know...How do you know translators got it wrong?

 

[Goliath]

so true!

Can either one of you gentlemen explain how the Sabbath became a day of going to church, instead of a Day of rest, as prescribed by God when he gave Moses the Law?
The way in which people keep it, it's anything but a Day of Rest.

There are examples, in the Bible, of how God wanted the Day kept, but everyone who seems to think they are keeping it...are actually breaking it.😳
Going to Church on the seventh day...is actually breaking the Sabbath!!
Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.”
(Exodus 16:29)
Cooking on Sunday....the Sunday meal mom cooks....is also forbidden.
He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”
(Exodus 16:23)

Its a lot like tithing, churches teach it, people do it...and the folks have no idea of why God set up the tithe. How the inheritance of the Levites ended up paying a churches mortgage, electric bills and a pastor's salary....I will never know. 🤔

 

[justpassinthrough]

Here are some of the shocking (to me) findings in the poll (2020) cited below...

"A majority of Americans, a new survey finds, no longer believe that Jesus Christ is the way to eternal salvation. Faith (generally) and good works, they say, will do the trick "

"Equally as startling, it was found that a majority of people who describe themselves as Christian (52%) believe that a person can gain eternal salvation by “being or doing good.” That includes close to half of all adults associated with Pentecostal (46%), mainline Protestant (44%), and evangelical (41%) churches. As expected, a much larger share of Catholics (70%) embrace that point of view."

This salvation-can-be-earned perspective, Barna says, fits well with other widely held views identified in the American Worldview Inventory 2020 that are at odds with biblical teaching.
Those have included:


• There is no absolute moral truth (58%)
• Basis of truth are factors or sources other than God (58%)
• Right/wrong determined by factors other than the Bible (77%)
• The Bible is not the authoritative and true word of God (59%)
• People are basically good (69%)

"“If you look at some of the dominant elements in the American mind and heart today, as illuminated by the Inventory, most people believe that the purpose of life is feeling good about yourself,” Barna says. “Most people contend that all faiths are of equal value, that entry into God’s eternal presence is determined by one’s personal means of choice and that there are no absolutes to guide or grow us morally.”

more at: https://outreachmagazine.com/resour...s-believe-works-are-the-key-to-salvation.html

No wonder this country is in the mess it's in.

Jesus Christ and His Gospel, His Teachings and His Commandments are the Truth.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

• the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

We are called to remain in Christ, and be fruitful. Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Obeying Him and His Commandments are how we love God and love our brothers.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15








JPT

 

[epicnerpmada]

Well Good...I thought you believed John was wrong.
So if Johns not wrong, you believe the people who translated the Greek into the English language, just translated it wrong?
Curious to know...How do you know translators got it wrong?

I have a friend who was my youth pastor years ago, we are now good friends and strong brothers in Christ. He's been in school for theology and biblical study and seminary stuff for a while.

Your first reply made me really read 1 John 3 9-10 and the whole chapter. I brought it to my friend, to see how he interpreted it.
He said that Greek has a certain "tense" for verbs that English doesn't have, or that English doesn't fully express or grasp. It makes the verb an ongoing thing, like it's happening and has been happening, not just the present, but the past too, and probably the future. Similar to "ing" in English.

He also pointed out the main idea, or the context of those verses (1john 3 9-10) which is Love.

Thank you for your challenges and questions, they have helped me learn more about my savior, and my bible.😁

 

[Phoneman-777]

Can either one of you gentlemen explain how the Sabbath became a day of going to church, instead of a Day of rest, as prescribed by God when he gave Moses the Law?
The way in which people keep it, it's anything but a Day of Rest.

It is argued that although the "Seventh Day" originates during Creation Week, the "Sabbath day" was not specifically mentioned until the time of Moses and therefore is distinct from the Seventh Day, pertains only to Israelites, must include all Mosaic applications to the Sabbath day, and is only to be observed by Israelites.

The above is "ground zero" for the 10 Megaton truth bomb which is about to explode and the collateral damage is going to be devastating. It is 1 Chronicles 17:27 KJV.

The verse says when God blesses something, it's blessed forever, therefore when God blessed the "Seventh day" during Creation Week, by default that is when the "Sabbath day" was blessed because to argue otherwise is to deny 1 Chronicles 17:27 KJV and say God's blessings are not potent enough the first time around. Therefore, the Sabbath is not

There are examples, in the Bible, of how God wanted the Day kept, but everyone who seems to think they are keeping it...are actually breaking it.😳
Going to Church on the seventh day...is actually breaking the Sabbath!!
Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.”
(Exodus 16:29)
Cooking on Sunday....the Sunday meal mom cooks....is also forbidden.
He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”
(Exodus 16:23)

Its a lot like tithing, churches teach it, people do it...and the folks have no idea of why God set up the tithe. How the inheritance of the Levites ended up paying a churches mortgage, electric bills and a pastor's salary....I will never know. 🤔

None of the prohibitions of the Israelites pertain to the Sabbath today. We are simply to "do no work" and observe the rest day for what it is: time alone with God and the brethren. It's every bit as important to keep the Sabbath day as it is to keep the other commandments because breaking them is what made necessary the death of our Lord Jesus in the first place

 

[Inquisitor]

Is that a bad thing?

"Blessed are they which do HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they might have right to the Tree of Life and may enter into the gates to the city." - Revelation 22:14 KJV​

What is mentioned are the Ten Commandments themselves - every one, including the Sabbath in Hebrews 4:9 Lamsa's Peshitta: "It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath."
True
Paul says the "law of commandments contained in ordinances" - which refers to the ceremonial law ONLY - has been abolished. The Ten Commandments which came directly from the hand of God "stand fast forever and ever" according to Psalms 111:7-8 KJV.
The Law of Moses was nailed to the Cross and is why we can ignore bringing a lamb for sacrifice, Passover observance, circumcision, etc...the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever" which is why it will ALWAYS be wrong to kill, lie, worship other gods, blaspheme, etc. It's really that simple.
We are required to keep the Ten Commandments ("for this is the whole duty of man" says Solomon) but the Law of Moses may be safely ignored.

A strange interpretation of the scripture.

Your interpretation separates all the law of Moses into two sections. The ten commandments and the ceremonial law.

Here is a very important commandment listed in the ceremonial law, as you call it.

Exodus 22:22
You shall not oppress any widow or orphan.

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

This commandment (Exodus 22:22) would appear near the top of any list of commandments.

Is it therefore allowable for you to oppress orphans because that commandment has been abolished?

I do not understand your interpretation.

 

[Inquisitor]

I have a friend who was my youth pastor years ago, we are now good friends and strong brothers in Christ. He's been in school for theology and biblical study and seminary stuff for a while.

Your first reply made me really read 1 John 3 9-10 and the whole chapter. I brought it to my friend, to see how he interpreted it.
He said that Greek has a certain "tense" for verbs that English doesn't have, or that English doesn't fully express or grasp. It makes the verb an ongoing thing, like it's happening and has been happening, not just the present, but the past too, and probably the future. Similar to "ing" in English.

He also pointed out the main idea, or the context of those verses (1john 3 9-10) which is Love.

Thank you for your challenges and questions, they have helped me learn more about my savior, and my bible.😁

Just ask someone who is fluent in Greek to translate the Koine Greek. It's their language after all.

Translating the Greek is not rocket science.

 

[BroTan]

Here are some of the shocking (to me) findings in the poll (2020) cited below...

"A majority of Americans, a new survey finds, no longer believe that Jesus Christ is the way to eternal salvation. Faith (generally) and good works, they say, will do the trick "

"Equally as startling, it was found that a majority of people who describe themselves as Christian (52%) believe that a person can gain eternal salvation by “being or doing good.” That includes close to half of all adults associated with Pentecostal (46%), mainline Protestant (44%), and evangelical (41%) churches. As expected, a much larger share of Catholics (70%) embrace that point of view."

This salvation-can-be-earned perspective, Barna says, fits well with other widely held views identified in the American Worldview Inventory 2020 that are at odds with biblical teaching.
Those have included:


• There is no absolute moral truth (58%)
• Basis of truth are factors or sources other than God (58%)
• Right/wrong determined by factors other than the Bible (77%)
• The Bible is not the authoritative and true word of God (59%)
• People are basically good (69%)

"“If you look at some of the dominant elements in the American mind and heart today, as illuminated by the Inventory, most people believe that the purpose of life is feeling good about yourself,” Barna says. “Most people contend that all faiths are of equal value, that entry into God’s eternal presence is determined by one’s personal means of choice and that there are no absolutes to guide or grow us morally.”

more at: https://outreachmagazine.com/resour...s-believe-works-are-the-key-to-salvation.html

No wonder this country is in the mess it's in.

Most people who share this believe are those who worship on Sundays, the first day of the week. According to the Bible the day of worship is on the seventh day of the week, Saturday. Paul say in 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Now any Christian in their right mind wouldn’t dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! They are either uninformed about which day is the Sabbath day of the God of the Bible or they are just following the tradition of religion that was passed down through the family or maybe they have let some preacher give them other excuses for ignoring God’s true day of worship. Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Jesus say in (Mat.7:21) “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven”. For students to succeed in school, students learn to follow their teachers' instructions, and learn their lessons carefully. But few apply this method when they are dealing with the word of God. Is Jesus your Lord? Then why don’t you do the things he says. (Luke 6:46) “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say”? He told you plainly: (Ex 20:8-10) (v.8) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (v.9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: (v.10) “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God”.

As it is written in (Rev. 22:11-14) (v.11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still: In other words be whatever you choose to be. (v.12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. So you will be judged according to your works?

 

[Goliath]

It is argued that although the "Seventh Day" originates during Creation Week, the "Sabbath day" was not specifically mentioned until the time of Moses and therefore is distinct from the Seventh Day, pertains only to Israelites, must include all Mosaic applications to the Sabbath day, and is only to be observed by Israelites.

The above is "ground zero" for the 10 Megaton truth bomb which is about to explode and the collateral damage is going to be devastating. It is 1 Chronicles 17:27 KJV.

The verse says when God blesses something, it's blessed forever, therefore when God blessed the "Seventh day" during Creation Week, by default that is when the "Sabbath day" was blessed because to argue otherwise is to deny 1 Chronicles 17:27 KJV and say God's blessings are not potent enough the first time around. Therefore, the Sabbath is not
None of the prohibitions of the Israelites pertain to the Sabbath today. We are simply to "do no work" and observe the rest day for what it is: time alone with God and the brethren. It's every bit as important to keep the Sabbath day as it is to keep the other commandments because breaking them is what made necessary the death of our Lord Jesus in the first place

I read 1 Chronicles 17:27, and I didn't see where it says anything about making the Sabbath a day of assembly.
Did you give me the wrong verse?

 

[Goliath]

Most people who share this believe are those who worship on Sundays, the first day of the week. According to the Bible the day of worship is on the seventh day of the week, Saturday. Paul say in 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Now any Christian in their right mind wouldn’t dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! They are either uninformed about which day is the Sabbath day of the God of the Bible or they are just following the tradition of religion that was passed down through the family or maybe they have let some preacher give them other excuses for ignoring God’s true day of worship. Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Jesus say in (Mat.7:21) “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven”. For students to succeed in school, students learn to follow their teachers' instructions, and learn their lessons carefully. But few apply this method when they are dealing with the word of God. Is Jesus your Lord? Then why don’t you do the things he says. (Luke 6:46) “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say”? He told you plainly: (Ex 20:8-10) (v.8) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (v.9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: (v.10) “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God”.

As it is written in (Rev. 22:11-14) (v.11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still: In other words be whatever you choose to be. (v.12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. So you will be judged according to your works?

But where does the bible say, God made the Sabbath as a day of assembly?
Should we assemble?
Yes, but I see nothing in the Bible where God changed the rules he set for the Sabbath.
If I am wrong..please show me, in the Bible, where God changed the rules of the keeping of the Sabbath.

 

[Goliath]

I have a friend who was my youth pastor years ago, we are now good friends and strong brothers in Christ. He's been in school for theology and biblical study and seminary stuff for a while.

Your first reply made me really read 1 John 3 9-10 and the whole chapter. I brought it to my friend, to see how he interpreted it.
He said that Greek has a certain "tense" for verbs that English doesn't have, or that English doesn't fully express or grasp. It makes the verb an ongoing thing, like it's happening and has been happening, not just the present, but the past too, and probably the future. Similar to "ing" in English.

He also pointed out the main idea, or the context of those verses (1john 3 9-10) which is Love.

Thank you for your challenges and questions, they have helped me learn more about my savior, and my bible.😁

Brother, I believe you missed my point. The Bible has already been translated into the English language, by expert translators. Therefore, there is no need to re-translate the Bible.
So my question for you....
Why do you think they try to change the meaning of verses, verses which have already been translated?

My answer to this question...
Instead of making their teachings conform to what the Bible teaches, they change the Bible, to conform to their teachings. My young friend...you don't want to go down that road.

Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
(2 Peter 3:15-16)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Can either one of you gentlemen explain how the Sabbath became a day of going to church, instead of a Day of rest, as prescribed by God when he gave Moses the Law?

Have you not read that the Jews attended their synagogues on the Sabbath, and it was also the custom of Christ? So it was both a day of rest and a day for worship. Then Christ said that it is also a day for good works, by deliberately healing on Sabbath days. While I am not a Sabbatarian, you need to go by what is in the Scriptures. Orthodox Jews still attend their synagogues on sabbath days.

 

[Goliath]

Have you not read that the Jews attended their synagogues on the Sabbath, and it was also the custom of Christ? So it was both a day of rest and a day for worship. Then Christ said that it is also a day for good works, by deliberately healing on Sabbath days. While I am not a Sabbatarian, you need to go by what is in the Scriptures. Orthodox Jews still attend their synagogues on sabbath days.

Yes you are correct, they did, but Jesus also accused them of creating their own traditions. I believe that is one of them, Unless you can show me in the Scriptures where God changed the sabbath.

And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
Mark 7:9