Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[Evmur]

FreeGrace2 said:
The one that you used to choose to post what you posted.

Of course God provides the options. He provided the option to eat the forbidden fruit. So what is your point?

The FACT remains that free will is ONLY the opportunity to choose between what is available. Like what color to choose for the day, what cereal to eat for breakfast, to be filled with the Spirit, or to grieve/quench the Spirit. These are probably not intentional choices, but what we do will result in whether we are filled with or grieving/quenching the Spirit.

Since you disagree with my definition, you need to explain how it doesn't work.

Just because God is the ultimate provider of options doesn't support the calvinist view in any way. Man STILL has options.


The Bible is clear to whom He does that; those who are NOT listening, NOT paying attention.


This is an unbiblical statement. 1 Tim 2:3-6 says otherwise:
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

This couldn't be more clear.

God who provides the options, He has free sovereign will.

If we had freewill we could say "ok God I refuse to accept any of Your options, I will do my own thing"

Reading 1 Timothy we see that God would have us to pray for kings and all who are in authority

We are not to assume that kings and rulers are our enemies and therefore out of God's reach, God does not pay regard to rank, whether a man is great or small, rich or poor etc we are to pray for all ranks and sorts of men for God would have all men [all sorts of men] to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

The words in Parenthesis are of course my thoughts.

But when did God ever will that any should be lost? or that any should rebel against Him and become His enemy? I am no believer in Calvin's doctrine of predestination unto damnation by default. Nor do I aspire to any notion of a limited atonement. Such doctrines are abhorrent to me. Yet I believe in bible predestination and election.

Moreover I am not one who believes just a few shrivelled souls will be saved but the great mass of humankind damned. I believe God's mercy will be much wider than evangelicalism teaches.

It is not God's will to save the wicked man who is determined to cleave to his wicked ways

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Romans 8:30-31 NKJV - "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"

The above passage is either True or it is false. Those who are called WILL be Justified and Glorified. And if God is going to do this, who can reject it?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Which one of you knows for sure that you have been "called"? Have you experienced Transformation, or is Romans 12:2 just a "nice read"?

 

[Evmur]

However, free will also includes man's response to the gospel message. It goes both ways.

If God gave man freewill then God is to blame for all the evil and woe that ensued when A & E exercised their God given freewill.

But if God forbade them to eat of that tree and they rebelled against God's command then they only are to blame

A & E were FREE when they disobeyed God they sold themselves and us into slavery ... dead men do not have freewill.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Colossians 2:13 NLT - "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

As Evmur states, those who have yet to be relieved of the Adamic Curse, they are "dead." And as Evmur stated, dead men cannot choose. However, they can be "Called" alive.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

When a person transfers from death to life, they know it.

One of the best ways of knowing if we have crossed from death to life is that we stop being jerks. We change.

Who has changed?

 

[FreeGrace2]

God who provides the options, He has free sovereign will.

Yes, clearly. That is not the issue here. As you will very shortly see.

If we had freewill we could say "ok God I refuse to accept any of Your options, I will do my own thing"

And that is exactly the issue! That IS ALWAYS an option that God has given to man.

For example, when the gospel is presented, man has a choice. To believe the promise or to reject the promise.

Reading 1 Timothy we see that God would have us to pray for kings and all who are in authority

So what? It doesn't say God forces anyone to do anything.

We are not to assume that kings and rulers are our enemies and therefore out of God's reach, God does not pay regard to rank, whether a man is great or small, rich or poor etc we are to pray for all ranks and sorts of men for God would have all men [all sorts of men] to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

Your bracketed "all sorts of" is NOT in the original, nor in ANY English translation.

If you want to limit the word "all", then you HAVE TO ADD such words, like "all sorts of" or "all kinds of". The Bible never does that.

The words in Parenthesis are of course my thoughts.

And unbiblical.

But when did God ever will that any should be lost?

The Bible doesn't ever say that. However, the Bible does tell us plainly who will be condemned: those who "have not believed". John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that exactly.

or that any should rebel against Him and become His enemy? I am no believer in Calvin's doctrine of predestination unto damnation by default. Nor do I aspire to any notion of a limited atonement. Such doctrines are abhorrent to me. Yet I believe in bible predestination and election.

Here is a choice for you to consider: there is the biblical election and there is the calvinist election. Which do you accept as truth?

Samples of biblical election:

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.
Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’
Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

In all these verses, the red words state who was chosen/elected. The blue words represent the purpose of being chosen.

You will note that none of the purposes are about salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If God gave man freewill then God is to blame for all the evil and woe that ensued when A & E exercised their God given freewill.

Just the opposite: if man DIDN'T HAVE FREE WILL, then WHO is behind all of man's actions and choices? God alone.

So you have it exactly backwards. Because man has freedom of choice, it is man himself who is responsible and accountable for all his actions and choices.

But if God forbade them to eat of that tree and they rebelled against God's command then they only are to blame

They were free to eat the forbidden fruit. God did not stop them. And they DID rebel against God's command, freely.

And they are to blame, as Genesis 3 shows.

A & E were FREE when they disobeyed God they sold themselves and us into slavery ... dead men do not have freewill.

If you mean physically dead men, then yes. They can't make any choices.

But if you are referrin to spiritually dead people, prove that they can't make free choices.

otoh, I can show you verses that say that men refused to believe and refused to repent.

Do you know that refusal is a choice? The very FACT of refusal proves that spiritually dead people CAN believe, but they refuse to do so.

They choose not to.

If they can't believe, then there is no choice involved. They can't do anything else.

In fact, if man can't believe, then they HAVE AN EXCUSE at the GWT judgment. They would have a legally sound argument that they weren't given the ability to believe. iow, they were "set up" to condemnation.

They could look at the ones who believed who are just as much sinners as they and say "see here? You gave them the ability to believe. That is NOT FAIR.

 

[Evmur]

Yes, clearly. That is not the issue here. As you will very shortly see.


And that is exactly the issue! That IS ALWAYS an option that God has given to man.

For example, when the gospel is presented, man has a choice. To believe the promise or to reject the promise.


So what? It doesn't say God forces anyone to do anything.


Your bracketed "all sorts of" is NOT in the original, nor in ANY English translation.

If you want to limit the word "all", then you HAVE TO ADD such words, like "all sorts of" or "all kinds of". The Bible never does that.


And unbiblical.


The Bible doesn't ever say that. However, the Bible does tell us plainly who will be condemned: those who "have not believed". John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that exactly.


Here is a choice for you to consider: there is the biblical election and there is the calvinist election. Which do you accept as truth?

Samples of biblical election:

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.
Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’
Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

In all these verses, the red words state who was chosen/elected. The blue words represent the purpose of being chosen.

You will note that none of the purposes are about salvation.

You keep saying God chose, God chose ... That's right, the bible never says that we chose God. You say that.

 

[Evmur]

Just the opposite: if man DIDN'T HAVE FREE WILL, then WHO is behind all of man's actions and choices? God alone.

So you have it exactly backwards. Because man has freedom of choice, it is man himself who is responsible and accountable for all his actions and choices.


They were free to eat the forbidden fruit. God did not stop them. And they DID rebel against God's command, freely.

And they are to blame, as Genesis 3 shows.


If you mean physically dead men, then yes. They can't make any choices.

But if you are referrin to spiritually dead people, prove that they can't make free choices.

otoh, I can show you verses that say that men refused to believe and refused to repent.

Do you know that refusal is a choice? The very FACT of refusal proves that spiritually dead people CAN believe, but they refuse to do so.

They choose not to.

If they can't believe, then there is no choice involved. They can't do anything else.

In fact, if man can't believe, then they HAVE AN EXCUSE at the GWT judgment. They would have a legally sound argument that they weren't given the ability to believe. iow, they were "set up" to condemnation.

They could look at the ones who believed who are just as much sinners as they and say "see here? You gave them the ability to believe. That is NOT FAIR.

You are not facing the reality of man's condition, his fall from grace and condemnation and punishment are not future events they are his condition now. Paul says we are , when left to ourselves, without God and without hope in this world.

We ARE dead in trespasses and sins you can choose all you like but you can't come ALIVE unto God. God has to do it for you.

Don't tell me you believed the gospel. It is not possible for the natural man to believe the gospel. That belief and the ability to receive it must come as a free gift.

"You were dead in trespasses and sins but God has raised you up to newness of life" ... "while you were yet dead in your sins Christ died for the ungodly"

 

[FreeGrace2]

You keep saying God chose, God chose ... That's right, the bible never says that we chose God. You say that.

Sorry, but this is rather confusing. When have I "kept saying God chose, God chose"? What are you referring to?

I did quote 1 Cor 1:27,28 that repeats "God chose". Were you bothered by my color coded quotes that clearly show who was doing the choosing/electing and the PURPOSE of His choosing. These verses PROVE that election isn't to salvation.

Oh, here's another example I forgot to include:

John 6:70,71 shows Jesus telling His 12 disciples that He chose them, and then adding "and one of you is a devil"!!!

Yep. Jesus chose Judas. His service was to betray Jesus. Now, don't get the notion that this choosing was against Judas' will.

On the contrary. Since God is omniscient (knows everything), God knew that Judas was absolutely betray Jesus if given the opportunity, and Judas was a master opportunist. Acts 17:26,27 says that God chooses the WHEN and WHERE He places everyone!

So He placed Judas exactly where and when Judas appeared on earth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Just the opposite: if man DIDN'T HAVE FREE WILL, then WHO is behind all of man's actions and choices? God alone.

So you have it exactly backwards. Because man has freedom of choice, it is man himself who is responsible and accountable for all his actions and choices.

They were free to eat the forbidden fruit. God did not stop them. And they DID rebel against God's command, freely.

And they are to blame, as Genesis 3 shows.

You are not facing the reality of man's condition, his fall from grace and condemnation and punishment are not future events they are his condition now.

What makes you think I think they are only future events? The reason Jesus came to earth and died for the sins of mankind is because they are both with Adam's sinful nature and NEED salvation.

Paul says we are , when left to ourselves, without God and without hope in this world.

He didn't say exactly that. Could you quote the verse accurately? btw, "when left to ourselves" is a false issue. We haven't been "left to ourselves". How do I know that? From the Bible.

What did God do when A&E rebelled? Did He leave them to themselves? No, He pursued them. And offered them salvation through the Savior.

Rom 1:19,20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Does this sound like God having "left us to ourselves"? NO! He has revealed Himself to everyone, so that "people ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

We ARE dead in trespasses and sins you can choose all you like but you can't come ALIVE unto God. God has to do it for you.

That is not the issue. Seems you are just trying to dodge the real issues by bringing up false issues.

Of course NO ONE chooses their parents, or even to get born, whether physically or spiritually. John 1:13 even says that.

The ONLY ISSUE is about salvation. That is a choice. However, per Romans 1:19,20, man must first pay attention to what God has shown to the human race. But even that is a choice. Some do pay attention, like Cornelius in Acts 10, and many do not pay attention.

Do you understand Heb 11:6? Read it and explain what is means to you.

Don't tell me you believed the gospel.

OK, I won't, but I HAVE believed the gospel.

It is not possible for the natural man to believe the gospel.

This is pure nonsense opinion. That is how unsaved man becomes a saved man. Just study a jailer's question and Paul's answer to him.

I've not yet met a calvinist who will honestly accept what Paul told him. They always come up with the nonsense that God had to regenerate the jailer so he would even ask that question. Absolutely zero evidence for that.

That belief and the ability to receive it must come as a free gift.

Please show me a verse that calls belief a free gift. I will show you a verse that says eternal life IS a free gift. You are confused.

"You were dead in trespasses and sins but God has raised you up to newness of life" ... "while you were yet dead in your sins Christ died for the ungodly"

Great verse! Now, just WHO are "the ungodly"???

Would you argue that ONLY the elect are "the ungodly"? Hmm?

I argue that "the ungodly" refers to everyone in the human race. Paul wrote that "there are none righteous, no, not one in Romans 3.

Not very calvinistic of him to write that.

 

[Evmur]

Sorry, but this is rather confusing. When have I "kept saying God chose, God chose"? What are you referring to?

I did quote 1 Cor 1:27,28 that repeats "God chose". Were you bothered by my color coded quotes that clearly show who was doing the choosing/electing and the PURPOSE of His choosing. These verses PROVE that election isn't to salvation.

Oh, here's another example I forgot to include:

John 6:70,71 shows Jesus telling His 12 disciples that He chose them, and then adding "and one of you is a devil"!!!

Yep. Jesus chose Judas. His service was to betray Jesus. Now, don't get the notion that this choosing was against Judas' will.

On the contrary. Since God is omniscient (knows everything), God knew that Judas was absolutely betray Jesus if given the opportunity, and Judas was a master opportunist. Acts 17:26,27 says that God chooses the WHEN and WHERE He places everyone!

So He placed Judas exactly where and when Judas appeared on earth.

I don't believe predestiny and election are unto salvation we are predestined and chosen to be conformed to the image of His Son ... who always did the Father's will.

Judas did Satan's will. At the last supper Satan entered into him.

I am not denying man has a will, I am denying that it is free. In bondage, enslaved by sin.

 

[Evmur]

FreeGrace2 said:
Just the opposite: if man DIDN'T HAVE FREE WILL, then WHO is behind all of man's actions and choices? God alone.

So you have it exactly backwards. Because man has freedom of choice, it is man himself who is responsible and accountable for all his actions and choices.

They were free to eat the forbidden fruit. God did not stop them. And they DID rebel against God's command, freely.

And they are to blame, as Genesis 3 shows.

What makes you think I think they are only future events? The reason Jesus came to earth and died for the sins of mankind is because they are both with Adam's sinful nature and NEED salvation.


He didn't say exactly that. Could you quote the verse accurately? btw, "when left to ourselves" is a false issue. We haven't been "left to ourselves". How do I know that? From the Bible.

What did God do when A&E rebelled? Did He leave them to themselves? No, He pursued them. And offered them salvation through the Savior.

Rom 1:19,20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Does this sound like God having "left us to ourselves"? NO! He has revealed Himself to everyone, so that "people ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.


That is not the issue. Seems you are just trying to dodge the real issues by bringing up false issues.

Of course NO ONE chooses their parents, or even to get born, whether physically or spiritually. John 1:13 even says that.

The ONLY ISSUE is about salvation. That is a choice. However, per Romans 1:19,20, man must first pay attention to what God has shown to the human race. But even that is a choice. Some do pay attention, like Cornelius in Acts 10, and many do not pay attention.

Do you understand Heb 11:6? Read it and explain what is means to you.


OK, I won't, but I HAVE believed the gospel.


This is pure nonsense opinion. That is how unsaved man becomes a saved man. Just study a jailer's question and Paul's answer to him.

I've not yet met a calvinist who will honestly accept what Paul told him. They always come up with the nonsense that God had to regenerate the jailer so he would even ask that question. Absolutely zero evidence for that.


Please show me a verse that calls belief a free gift. I will show you a verse that says eternal life IS a free gift. You are confused.


Great verse! Now, just WHO are "the ungodly"???

Would you argue that ONLY the elect are "the ungodly"? Hmm?

I argue that "the ungodly" refers to everyone in the human race. Paul wrote that "there are none righteous, no, not one in Romans 3.

Not very calvinistic of him to write that.

The true implication of the doctrine of human freewill is that it was totally unnecessary that Christ should die on the cross to set us free.

Man could simply decide or choose to obey Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't believe predestiny and election are unto salvation we are predestined and chosen to be conformed to the image of His Son ... who always did the Father's will.

I agree. Only believers can be conformed to the image of His Son. So it's believers who have been chosen and predestined.

Judas did Satan's will. At the last supper Satan entered into him.

Satan didn't force him. Don't even try to go there. Jesus described him as a devil back in John 6:70.

I am not denying man has a will, I am denying that it is free.

Well, I've given you enough Scripture to clear your head about that. But you have to CHOOSE to accept what the Bible says.

You have no verses that say or show that man is unable to believe. What you do have are calvinist talking points.

[QUOTE In bondage, enslaved by sin.[/QUOTE]
Read Romans 6 over and over. It's all there. Man chooses to whom he will serve. Paul said so plainly. v.16

 

[Evmur]

FreeGrace2 said:
Just the opposite: if man DIDN'T HAVE FREE WILL, then WHO is behind all of man's actions and choices? God alone.

So you have it exactly backwards. Because man has freedom of choice, it is man himself who is responsible and accountable for all his actions and choices.

They were free to eat the forbidden fruit. God did not stop them. And they DID rebel against God's command, freely.

And they are to blame, as Genesis 3 shows.

What makes you think I think they are only future events? The reason Jesus came to earth and died for the sins of mankind is because they are both with Adam's sinful nature and NEED salvation.


He didn't say exactly that. Could you quote the verse accurately? btw, "when left to ourselves" is a false issue. We haven't been "left to ourselves". How do I know that? From the Bible.

What did God do when A&E rebelled? Did He leave them to themselves? No, He pursued them. And offered them salvation through the Savior.

Rom 1:19,20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Does this sound like God having "left us to ourselves"? NO! He has revealed Himself to everyone, so that "people ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.


That is not the issue. Seems you are just trying to dodge the real issues by bringing up false issues.

Of course NO ONE chooses their parents, or even to get born, whether physically or spiritually. John 1:13 even says that.

The ONLY ISSUE is about salvation. That is a choice. However, per Romans 1:19,20, man must first pay attention to what God has shown to the human race. But even that is a choice. Some do pay attention, like Cornelius in Acts 10, and many do not pay attention.

Do you understand Heb 11:6? Read it and explain what is means to you.


OK, I won't, but I HAVE believed the gospel.


This is pure nonsense opinion. That is how unsaved man becomes a saved man. Just study a jailer's question and Paul's answer to him.

I've not yet met a calvinist who will honestly accept what Paul told him. They always come up with the nonsense that God had to regenerate the jailer so he would even ask that question. Absolutely zero evidence for that.


Please show me a verse that calls belief a free gift. I will show you a verse that says eternal life IS a free gift. You are confused.


Great verse! Now, just WHO are "the ungodly"???

Would you argue that ONLY the elect are "the ungodly"? Hmm?

I argue that "the ungodly" refers to everyone in the human race. Paul wrote that "there are none righteous, no, not one in Romans 3.

Not very calvinistic of him to write that.

You get tangled up because you oppose Calvin, instead you should argue from the bible
"By grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of yourself, lest Freegrace2 should boast in God's presence"

 

[FreeGrace2]

The true implication of the doctrine of human freewill is that it was totally unnecessary that Christ should die on the cross to set us free.

He died on the cross to pay the sin debt and remove the barrier between God and man. And salvation is by trusting in Christ's work on the cross. That is a choice. I'm very sorry that you don't agree. But it is the biblical truth.

Man could simply decide or choose to obey Him.

Nope. God didn't give man THAT option. The only options that God gives to man for salvation is to either believe the promise or reject it.

 

[Evmur]

I agree. Only believers can be conformed to the image of His Son. So it's believers who have been chosen and predestined.


Satan didn't force him. Don't even try to go there. Jesus described him as a devil back in John 6:70.


Well, I've given you enough Scripture to clear your head about that. But you have to CHOOSE to accept what the Bible says.

You have no verses that say or show that man is unable to believe. What you do have are calvinist talking points.

[QUOTE In bondage, enslaved by sin.

Read Romans 6 over and over. It's all there. Man chooses to whom he will serve. Paul said so plainly. v.16[/QUOTE]
When were you predestined and chosen? after you were saved or before the world began?

... how then can you now say it by your own freewill?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You get tangled up because you oppose Calvin, instead you should argue from the bible

I'm not tangeled up at all. And I AM arguing from the Bible, unlike yourself. You give me calvinist talking points. I give you verses.

"By grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of yourself, lest Freegrace2 should boast in God's presence"

The "that not of yourself" refers back to "saved" or salvation.

This verse proves that man cannot save himself. He is saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His work. Not mine.

How can you argue against this?

 

[Runningman]

I mean all our choices are free. But the key is about choices that are available. I could choose to eat filet mignon every night, but if I can't afford to buy that steak, I can't really choose to eat it.

That’s false and assumes the only way to get filet mignon is by buying it. There are many other ways to get it and if you’re determined enough it’s possible to eat it every night. You’re saying it’s impossible to eat it every night, that’s flawed logic.

Regardless of how much I want to change the weather, I have no choice to do so. So, those factors really have nothing to do with our will anyway. Kinda like a red herring. Irrelevant.

Someone doesn’t seem up to date on the latest news’s regarding weather. It’s entirely possible to effect the weather and produce a desired outcome using modern technology. You should spend some time researching these things before you talk like you know something.