Institutionalizion of the Church

[Eli1]

There are marks of a true church.. (not perfect but sticking to the Word)

Baptism of believers only by full immersion

Salvation by grace thru faith in Christ

Independence of the local church from state control

Belief in the one triune God

Belief that Jesus is God and rose again.

Belief in the 2nd coming

There are other features but these are key ones

I like this but what church would be free from state control for example?
because the issue seems to be as the gentleman above put it : The institutionalization of the church, however, is evil. In the U.S. churches that want tax exemption must agree to 501(c)3 whereby they are granted status from the government.

 

[Inquisitor]

Very true and interesting subject and it may be related directly to ignorance. The powers that be in the church acted as sort of gatekeepers of knowledge and information, clutching the Holy Scriptures tightly, and only filtering the scriptures through interpretations.

If we accept that it was not until 1455 when the first ever Bible was printed, not even taking into account widespread illiteracy, a severe shortage of Bibles to distribute, non-availability of scripture in all native languages, and the ever-looming fear of capital punishment for heresy, then it was not until after approximately 1,450 years or so (being extremely conservative) that any church member could actually "Be a Berean" and "search the scriptures daily" to see if what the church was teaching them is true.

Turns out that much of what the church was teaching them then was false and much of what the church is teaching people today is false. Having access to the scriptures, enabling all to "Be a Berean" doesn't seem to be stemming the tidal wave of heresies from the church that are engulfing the world, but that isn't completely useless.

If we can easily identify what false doctrines the modern church is producing, which isn't hard, then we can more accurately find what isn't the truth. By process of elimination, examining the doctrines of literally thousands of denominations, we can obtain a wealth of information about what not to believe and about how to not read the Bible, leaving the possible true interpretations of scripture in a much less crowded pool of possibilities.

From the first century onwards, the churches had copies of the letters that the apostles wrote. These copies of the letters were read in churches across the Roman Empire. Its not as if, Christians were ignorant of the truth.

The Latin translation (The Vulgate) containing the Septuagint and the New Testament, was translated late in the fourth century by Jerome. The church actually had one of the most accurate translations ever written, late in the fourth century. I would not call the Vulgate a Catholic translation.

Our understanding of the church in the first four centuries is incomplete. We rely on early church letters and creeds which is not the full story.

 

[Nehemiah6]

In the U.S. churches that want tax exemption must agree to 501(c)3 whereby they are granted status from the government.

This was obviously a snare, and most churches were snared. They should have simply paid whatever taxes needed to be paid and maintained their freedom from government interference. And when the COVID Scamdemic went into effect, had all churches across the board throughout the world said "No interference" the governments could have done nothing. And because that did not happen, pastors were jailed for exercising their freedom to worship and freedom of speech.

Getting back to "institutionalization" we need to keep two things in mind: (a) all churches were ORGANIZED entities during the apostolic period, and (b) it is only after the Reformation that the denominations began to become institutionalized. And quite unfortunately the Reformers forgot that the power of the state was not to used to deal with other Christians who disagreed with them. The Catholic and Byzantine churches had already been using (or abusing) the power of the state, and the Reformers should have known better (based upon the Word of God).

 

[Gideon300]

Very true and interesting subject and it may be related directly to ignorance. The powers that be in the church acted as sort of gatekeepers of knowledge and information, clutching the Holy Scriptures tightly, and only filtering the scriptures through interpretations.

If we accept that it was not until 1455 when the first ever Bible was printed, not even taking into account widespread illiteracy, a severe shortage of Bibles to distribute, non-availability of scripture in all native languages, and the ever-looming fear of capital punishment for heresy, then it was not until after approximately 1,450 years or so (being extremely conservative) that any church member could actually "Be a Berean" and "search the scriptures daily" to see if what the church was teaching them is true.

Turns out that much of what the church was teaching them then was false and much of what the church is teaching people today is false. Having access to the scriptures, enabling all to "Be a Berean" doesn't seem to be stemming the tidal wave of heresies from the church that are engulfing the world, but that isn't completely useless.

If we can easily identify what false doctrines the modern church is producing, which isn't hard, then we can more accurately find what isn't the truth. By process of elimination, examining the doctrines of literally thousands of denominations, we can obtain a wealth of information about what not to believe and about how to not read the Bible, leaving the possible true interpretations of scripture in a much less crowded pool of possibilities.

It is still true that "searching the scriptures" is pointless unless it leads us to Jesus. I visit one of the few remaining Christian bookshops now and again. There are many versions of the Bible, a Bible for the young, the old, the student, women and so on. Why we have so many versions, that all say much the same thing, is beyond me. And it has done absolutely nothing to edify and build up God's people, at least where I live.

Lord Jesus preached words that are "Spirit and life" (John 6:63). Way too much preaching and teaching is directed to the intellect. Way too much lacks the anointing of the Spirit and lacks life. We need both the written word to renew the mind and the living Word to edify the inner, spirit man. It's possible to be doctrinally exact and as dead as a Dodo.

 

[wattie]

I like this but what church would be free from state control for example?
because the issue seems to be as the gentleman above put it : The institutionalization of the church, however, is evil. In the U.S. churches that want tax exemption must agree to 501(c)3 whereby they are granted status from the government.

Yeah.. there is a problem here with churches registering as trusts.. and then have to abide by the govt regulations

This may or may not be a godly way forward

 

[Gideon300]

This was obviously a snare, and most churches were snared. They should have simply paid whatever taxes needed to be paid and maintained their freedom from government interference. And when the COVID Scamdemic went into effect, had all churches across the board throughout the world said "No interference" the governments could have done nothing. And because that did not happen, pastors were jailed for exercising their freedom to worship and freedom of speech.

Getting back to "institutionalization" we need to keep two things in mind: (a) all churches were ORGANIZED entities during the apostolic period, and (b) it is only after the Reformation that the denominations began to become institutionalized. And quite unfortunately the Reformers forgot that the power of the state was not to used to deal with other Christians who disagreed with them. The Catholic and Byzantine churches had already been using (or abusing) the power of the state, and the Reformers should have known better (based upon the Word of God).

Yes, the Reformation, at least in the Western world, has yet to touch the institutional structures. It's still a pyramid style of leadership that needs to be unwound. The church in China has endured much persecution. Leaders are routinely imprisoned. But because they know the dangers of the "one man band", they have another who can step into the Pastor's role immediately. There should be no need for head hunting. The local church should have a number of people who can preach and teach and encourage.

 

[wattie]

I like this but what church would be free from state control for example?
because the issue seems to be as the gentleman above put it : The institutionalization of the church, however, is evil. In the U.S. churches that want tax exemption must agree to 501(c)3 whereby they are granted status from the government.

Well here in new Zealand you can opt out of being a trust. So members won't get any money back from donations, but the state cannot determine any of that churches affairs.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Yes, I hate the Catholicism; I never said otherwise. I love the people who are caught in its clutches and have been led down the wrong road. But I hate everything that institution stands for: The way it has corrupted the truth; its lust for power; its open mockery of Yahweh and Christ Jesus; its arrogance; its lies; its greed; its murders; its sexual crimes.

I think it was sometime in the early 2000s the pope apologized for all the ills perpetrated by Catholicism in the past; but this was nothing more than a transparent bid to gain credibility so it could continue to push its false unity plan. They think a simple apology will make people forget.

The Holocaust can't hold a candle to the Inquisition. The Holocaust: Some 6,000,000, give or take, over a few years. The Inquisition: 50,000,000 over 500 years.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Pope kissing the Quran.

https://novusordowatch.org/2018/03/john-paul2-kissed-muslim-koran/

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes, I hate the Catholicism; I never said otherwise. I love the people who are caught in its clutches and have been led down the wrong road. But I hate everything that institution stands for: The way it has corrupted the truth; its lust for power; its open mockery of Yahweh and Christ Jesus; its arrogance; its lies; its greed; its murders; its sexual crimes.

I think it was sometime in the early 2000s the pope apologized for all the ills perpetrated by Catholicism in the past; but this was nothing more than a transparent bid to gain credibility so it could continue to push its false unity plan. They think a simple apology will make people forget.

The Holocaust can't hold a candle to the Inquisition. The Holocaust: Some 6,000,000, give or take, over a few years. The Inquisition: 50,000,000 over 500 years.

Where did you get the fifty million figure from for the Inquisition?

 

[arthurfleminger]

Yes, I hate the Catholicism; I never said otherwise. I love the people who are caught in its clutches and have been led down the wrong road. But I hate everything that institution stands for: The way it has corrupted the truth; its lust for power; its open mockery of Yahweh and Christ Jesus; its arrogance; its lies; its greed; its murders; its sexual crimes.

I think it was sometime in the early 2000s the pope apologized for all the ills perpetrated by Catholicism in the past; but this was nothing more than a transparent bid to gain credibility so it could continue to push its false unity plan. They think a simple apology will make people forget.

The Holocaust can't hold a candle to the Inquisition. The Holocaust: Some 6,000,000, give or take, over a few years. The Inquisition: 50,000,000 over 500 years.

RA, I have a quesstion for you, from whence did you arrive at the fantastic number of 50million?

Please cite the name of reputable historians who assert such an absolutely ridiculous figure. Cite your reference please. Thanks.

BTW, we Protestants also have a long history of 'Inquisitions', they are easily researchable on line if you are truly interested in inquisitions.

One of our recent Protestant inquisitions occurred right here in the USA, over a period of many decades. Our 'White Christian Brotherhood' of the Ku Klux Klan was prevalent throughout the North and South for about 100 years after the Civil War. They controlled politics in most Southern and many Northern States. And our 'White Christian Brotherhood', made up completely of our Protestant brothers and sisters conducted murderous campaigns of hatred toward blacks, Catholics, Jews, and immigrants. Why did you fail to mention this?

You're not pointing the finger of blame at some and turning a blind eye toward others, are you?

Again, I request that you cite your reference for the 50million killed during the Catholic inquisition. Thanks..

 

[wattie]

RA, I have a quesstion for you, from whence did you arrive at the fantastic number of 50million?

Please cite the name of reputable historians who assert such an absolutely ridiculous figure. Cite your reference please. Thanks.

BTW, we Protestants also have a long history of 'Inquisitions', they are easily researchable on line if you are truly interested in inquisitions.

One of our recent Protestant inquisitions occurred right here in the USA, over a period of many decades. Our 'White Christian Brotherhood' of the Ku Klux Klan was prevalent throughout the North and South for about 100 years after the Civil War. They controlled politics in most Southern and many Northern States. And our 'White Christian Brotherhood', made up completely of our Protestant brothers and sisters conducted murderous campaigns of hatred toward blacks, Catholics, Jews, and immigrants. Why did you fail to mention this?

You're not pointing the finger of blame at some and turning a blind eye toward others, are you?

Again, I request that you cite your reference for the 50million killed during the Catholic inquisition. Thanks..

Well.. just to jump in.. have a look at history books on the persecution of anabaptists. I think around the 50,000,000 mark is accurate all included.

And yes.. they do get called heretics.. but again, by who? Mostly the RCC and pedobaptists who are mostly unbiblical in their beliefs.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Well.. just to jump in.. have a look at history books on the persecution of anabaptists. I think around the 50,000,000 mark is accurate all included.

And yes.. they do get called heretics.. but again, by who? Mostly the RCC and pedobaptists who are mostly unbiblical in their beliefs.

Please cite your historical references for the 50million, thanks.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Where did you get the fifty million figure from for the Inquisition?

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/estimates.htm

There's also a link here if you want to download a PDF of the same article.

http://www.noiseofthunderradio.com/articles/2011/11/14/50-million-protestants-killed.html

50,000,000 may be a little high for the Inquisition proper; but if you figure in all people murdered by the Catholic "church" since the beginning of popery in 606, it would be at least that high.

 

[ResidentAlien]

RA, I have a quesstion for you, from whence did you arrive at the fantastic number of 50million?

Please cite the name of reputable historians who assert such an absolutely ridiculous figure. Cite your reference please. Thanks.

BTW, we Protestants also have a long history of 'Inquisitions', they are easily researchable on line if you are truly interested in inquisitions.

One of our recent Protestant inquisitions occurred right here in the USA, over a period of many decades. Our 'White Christian Brotherhood' of the Ku Klux Klan was prevalent throughout the North and South for about 100 years after the Civil War. They controlled politics in most Southern and many Northern States. And our 'White Christian Brotherhood', made up completely of our Protestant brothers and sisters conducted murderous campaigns of hatred toward blacks, Catholics, Jews, and immigrants. Why did you fail to mention this?

You're not pointing the finger of blame at some and turning a blind eye toward others, are you?

Again, I request that you cite your reference for the 50million killed during the Catholic inquisition. Thanks..

Hey, I agree. I'm on your side.

 

[arthurfleminger]

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/estimates.htm

There's also a link here if you want to download a PDF of the same article.

http://www.noiseofthunderradio.com/articles/2011/11/14/50-million-protestants-killed.html

50,000,000 may be a little high for the Inquisition proper; but if you figure in all people murdered by the Catholic "church" since the beginning of popery in 606, it would be at least that high.

I note that UNC Professor David A. Plaisted Ph.D. the author of your citation is not an historian at all but, David A. Plaisted is a PHD in computer sciences. Who is Plaisted and what is his agenda, he's obviously not an historian. So, do you really have any real 'historians' that would back up your figure of 50million? There are many true/real historians that would completely debunk that figure. Thanks.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I note that UNC Professor David A. Plaisted Ph.D. the author of your citation is not an historian at all but, David A. Plaisted is a PHD in computer sciences. Who is Plaisted and what is his agenda, he's obviously not an historian. So, do you really have any real 'historians' that would back up your figure of 50million? There are many true/real historians that would completely debunk that figure. Thanks.

Oh, I totally agree.

 

[Magenta]

It is still true that "searching the scriptures" is pointless unless it leads us to Jesus. I visit one of the few remaining Christian bookshops now and again. There are many versions of the Bible, a Bible for the young, the old, the student, women and so on. Why we have so many versions, that all say much the same thing, is beyond me. And it has done absolutely nothing to edify and build up God's people, at least where I live.

Lord Jesus preached words that are "Spirit and life" (John 6:63). Way too much preaching and teaching is directed to the intellect. Way too much lacks the anointing of the Spirit and lacks life. We need both the written word to renew the mind and the living Word to edify the inner, spirit man. It's possible to be doctrinally exact and as dead as a Dodo.

John 6:63

 

[arthurfleminger]

I note that UNC Professor David A. Plaisted Ph.D. the author of your citation is not an historian at all but, David A. Plaisted is a PHD in computer sciences. Who is Plaisted and what is his agenda, he's obviously not an historian. So, do you really have any real 'historians' that would back up your figure of 50million? There are many true/real historians that would completely debunk that figure. Thanks.

Also, i've researched Prof David A. Plaistied, he is well know on line. And there is no evidence at all the it was he that wrote the article you cited. So, who is the 'David A. Plaistiee' that you are citing. What are his historical qualifications? Thanks.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Also, i've researched Prof David A. Plaistied, he is well know on line. And there is no evidence at all the it was he that wrote the article you cited. So, who is the 'David A. Plaistiee' that you are citing. What are his historical qualifications? Thanks.

You're a good researcher. Thank you for your findings.