Is veneration of saints Biblical?
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I would remind him of what is written in the Scriptures.......
Matthew 4:10
Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.’”
The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven, just as they approach God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord: “But you have approached Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, and the assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood which speaks better than that of Abel” (Heb. 12:22-24).
It is clear the Christian has approached a number of heavenly beings: the heavenly Jerusalem, the angels, God the judge, and Jesus the mediator. “The assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven” and the phrase “spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect” can refer only to the saints in heaven.
It is clear the Christian has approached a number of heavenly beings: the heavenly Jerusalem, the angels, God the judge, and Jesus the mediator. “The assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven” and the phrase “spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect” can refer only to the saints in heaven.
I've heard that all this veneration of saints was essentially putting a Christian facade on old pagan idols. It was a marketing strategy to appease the pagan parishioners after Christianity became state religion.
That's a good point.
I can't imagine what was going through their heads: "Hmm, we want to overthrow paganism so we'll introduce it into our own religion."
The veneration of saints and their relics goes all the way back to what happened when Elisha was being buried: And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year. And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet. (2 Kings 13:20,21)
All those who have been justified by grace through faith are "saints". And the saints who have passed on are very much alive in Heaven (all the OT saints were taken to Heaven from Hades at the resurrection of Christ). However, there is absolutely no biblical basis for either venerating them, praying to them, or asking for their intercession. But the Orthodox and Catholic churches have made this a practice.
The Catholic Church (and other churches) go so far as to designate a specific day of the year to each saint. Therefore there are "Calendars of Saints" to remember each one on their designated day. St Christopher is well-known as the patron saint of travelers, so people wear St. Christopher medals around their necks. His feast day is July 25 (for example).
O
Omegatime
Guest
In the Greek language the word saint is the same word we use for angels, comes from the root word holy ones.
That's correct. The word "hagios" can apply to either saints or angels, depending on the context. Hagios does mean worthy of veneration, but only God and Christ are worthy of veneration. Therefore we read in Isaiah and Revelation: And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory... And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. The absolute holiness of God may not be compared to any saint or angels.
I have a hard time coming to a definite conclusion on this subject... especially in regard to the RCC. I was raised, in my youth RCC, but found it not to my liking. I basically turned my back on God way back then. After years and years, I was taught other ways and learned from the Bible. I do believe that there are those in the RCC you are saved - they of course don't hold to all the RCC's teachings. Still, they stay for mixed reasons, and I don't begrudge them that.
Many of them, when asked, would talk about "veneration" in a manner that I'm sure that many of you have already heard - that it's not that they worship Saints and Mary, but rather simply have a high regard for some of them. And here, I would argue with the OP's definition of the word "venerate" and side with those in the RCC that sincerely make that distinction. Because from my understanding of the word "venerate", most dictionaries and books of Etymology won't rate the word "worship" is a common use synonym. Don't get me wrong "worship" is indeed a synonym, it's just lowly ranked. (Often times synonyms for a word evolve from misusage/out-of-context.)
Regardless, if people have a high regard for a person of Faith and able to add prayers to God in their favor, who am I to object to that? Now I will say, also, that the person's understanding of why they hold some in high regard is important to me. Take the RCC's story about Mary's supposed elevation into some Uber Menchen, is just flat out wrong, IMHO. Still again, while I also believe that the mere fact that not being perfect, technically, is a sin too - I think Jesus' atonement covers that for us all - so I don't need my friend's to be perfect either.
I just pray God to open their eyes and give them understanding.
Many of them, when asked, would talk about "veneration" in a manner that I'm sure that many of you have already heard - that it's not that they worship Saints and Mary, but rather simply have a high regard for some of them. And here, I would argue with the OP's definition of the word "venerate" and side with those in the RCC that sincerely make that distinction. Because from my understanding of the word "venerate", most dictionaries and books of Etymology won't rate the word "worship" is a common use synonym. Don't get me wrong "worship" is indeed a synonym, it's just lowly ranked. (Often times synonyms for a word evolve from misusage/out-of-context.)
Regardless, if people have a high regard for a person of Faith and able to add prayers to God in their favor, who am I to object to that? Now I will say, also, that the person's understanding of why they hold some in high regard is important to me. Take the RCC's story about Mary's supposed elevation into some Uber Menchen, is just flat out wrong, IMHO. Still again, while I also believe that the mere fact that not being perfect, technically, is a sin too - I think Jesus' atonement covers that for us all - so I don't need my friend's to be perfect either.
I just pray God to open their eyes and give them understanding.
Luke 4:8
And Jesus answering, said to him, "It has been written: 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve Him only.'"
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
And Jesus answering, said to him, "It has been written: 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve Him only.'"
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
Grace, you correctly quote from 1 Timothe 2:5, For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,"
However, you conveniently ignored
1 Timothy 2:1 "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,"
Time after time, the Bible urges Christians to pray for our brothers and sisters, to act as mediator with Jesus/God, for their needs, spiritual and other needs. So, it is okay to offer prayers and supplications for our brothers and sisters.
One of the problems with 'cherry picking' a quote out of the Bible, like you did, is that you miss the meaning of the whole chapter of 1 Timothy.
So, Grace, do you ever pray for others or ask them to pray for you or your intentions? Don't you realize that when we as Christians pray for our brothers/sisters, we are acting as mediators with Jesus/Gos?
So,, do you mediate for others?
When an individual 'cherry picks' Scripture and pulls it out of context, in an attempt to make it agree with their viewpoint, it is no longer God's word but the word of the individual who is trying to press forward their own viewpoint.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing,
and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether
they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 Thessalonians 4:12-16
So that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one. But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.
Leviticus 19:31
“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out,
and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Isaiah 8:19
And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,”
should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?
Magenta, you have a misconception of death and those that have died. Your conception of death is the same that the Pharisees queried Jesus about, and Jesus answered, "He is not the God of the dead but of the living” (Matthew 22:31–32). As Jesus points out, the verb am is in the present tense; God did not say, “I was the God of your fathers.” He said, “I am their God,” showing that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were still alive (in heaven) in Moses’ day.
In 1 Thessalonians, Paul reiterates that those who have seemed to have fallen asleep are not dead.
Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
Magenta, those who you have written off as dead are in fact alive and well with Jesus, as we converse, if they were true believers in Jesus.
As I said, your concept of death is all wrong.
You have to deny a lot of Scriptures to make that claim.
Proverbs 6:16-19 plus 12
You have to deny a lot of Scriptures to make that claim.
Proverbs 6:16-19 plus 12
For those of you who think that the departed are dead and gone and won't return until Jesus' Second Coming, you are wrong and need to familiarize yourselves with what is going on in heaven. Study the Book of Revelations:
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
The dead are not dead in gone.
You make erroneous and unfounded assumptions.
Are you denying Scripture? Why, yes, yes you are.
That's a good point.
I can't imagine what was going through their heads: "Hmm, we want to overthrow paganism so we'll introduce it into our own religion."
Not “overthrow“. More like “incorporate” to appease the population. Christians, at the time of the Edict of Toleration, were the largest homogenous religious group in the Roman empire (Perhaps 10%). Effectively, they had conquered the Roman Empire without waging a single physical battle. Making Christianity the State religion was a political move to consolidate power. Paganism, and many of its practices, was coalesced to appease the majority of the rest of the population.
