What Verse or Passage of scripture do you find difficult to interpret?
- Thread starter Amanuensis
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Lafftur, this thread is about using the rules of hermeneutics.
If you can prove your view using the rules of hermeneutics,
please do.
So what you have done here is give a statement of an idea that you have. You have not shown what scriptures support this.
I mean you have shown that you think that the statement that Jesus has the Keys of Hell means that he can release someone who is in the torment part of hell if He wants to.
And you have mentioned that the books are opened to judge them for their works and hell is cast into the Lake of Fire and whoever's name is not written in the book of Life somehow means that those in hell were checked in the book of Life to make sure their name was not there, because there was possibility that someones name is in there and if so they get out of hell. I think that is what you were trying to present.
And then you sort of Yelled at me for not agreeing that the Mercy of God allows people in hell to get a second chance. And told me if I don't believe that then I don't understand the Mercy of God.
And you claim that the Spirit will show people this even though the Bible does not teach this if we read it using human reading comprehension skills that we learned when being taught to read.
Is that what you are saying? Have I accurately repeated what you have presented thus far?
I looked up 'dead' in Strongs (base/root words).
I looked at every definition. (Greek/NT)
With a few rare exceptions, all of them may be used literally or figuratively.
The word in the verse in question is one of the (possibly the) most common listed.
~
In this situation, context is key!
No, you have NOT accurately presented what I have presented thus far.
If Hell/Hades is so “FINAL JUDGMENT” in your view then why another search for names in the Book of Life?
Why do all the dead even have to “appear” before the Great White Throne?
Hasn’t their “judgment” already been determined? Or maybe not…
The anti-christ and false prophet get thrown ALIVE in the Lake of Fire - they don’t go to Hell/Hades… THAT sounds like “FINAL JUDGMENT” to me.
Hell/Hades is the LAST CHANCE.
Lake of Fire is the FINAL JUDGMENT.
No, you have NOT accurately presented what I have presented thus far.
If Hell/Hades is so “FINAL JUDGMENT” in your view then why another search for names in the Book of Life?
Why do all the dead even have to “appear” before the Great White Throne?
Hasn’t their “judgment” already been determined? Or maybe not…
The anti-christ and false prophet get thrown ALIVE in the Lake of Fire - they don’t go to Hell/Hades… THAT sounds like “FINAL JUDGMENT” to me.
Hell/Hades is the LAST CHANCE.
Lake of Fire is the FINAL JUDGMENT.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This statement says that the souls in hell were judged according to their works and thrown into the Lake of Fire.
14 and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Then the next statement ....15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I don't read this as a search being done for the names of those in hell that were already cast into the Lake of Fire in 14.
It is not something that holds up the casting of hell into the Lake of Fire already accomplished in 14.
From what I've learned, in 20:13, the "sea" is the same sea that symbolizes all gentile nations, and the "work" is not referring to any work of the law or any work in the office, but sinful acts that offend God. In substitutional atonement theology which I believe, Jesus BECAME sin as He took all the sins of the world unto himself on the cross, and His blood throughly cleansed our sins, praise be to God; but for those who do not believe in Him, their sins are counted, and they're judged for their iniquities, you know, violence, fornication, drug addiction, blaspheming against God, all those on the list mentioned in the previous chapters, and the punishment is the second death in the lake of fire. So there you can draw the connection to John 3:16-18 and see why those who don't believe are condemned already.
I've always read it as those lost at sea. Like a way of describing the resurrection of all those bodies wherever they may be even in the ocean.
Hell is the Lake of Fire whereas Hades is the abode of departed souls and spirits until their final judgment. The KJV has caused much confusion by using the word "hell" indiscriminately.
That should have been written in verse 14 as "Death and Hades" not "Death and Hell".
καὶ ὁ θάνατος καὶ ὁ ᾅδης* ἐβλήθησαν εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός οὗτος ἐστιν ὁ δεύτερός θάνατος
Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.
And also capitalized since they are personified (as in Rev 6:7,8). Death and Hades do not literally ride on horses. And therefore what is really means is that after the Great White Throne Judgment, death is terminated on earth, therefore Hades is also terminated, since there is no need for it. There will be no more death on the New Earth.
Well it gotta be consistent. Since it says in 17:15 that the sea symbolizes all nations on earth, then I tend to read all mentions of the sea, even the waters and flood, as nations on earth, and even the
Yeah, Hades was the despised big brother of Zeus, mostly known as the lord of the underworld, his name often went hand in hand with death - who's often portrayed as the Grim Reaper, you know, that classic mythical figure, a skeleton dressed in a black robe and a cowl, carrying a large scythe, with a cluster of skulls hung around his neck and an hourglass tucked in his belt, waiting beside every deathbed to collect the soul of the deceased. So Hades is not necessarily a place, but rather a deity. According to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, all dead people either end up in Abraham's bosom or Gehenna, Abraham's guarding the gate, and there's a great gulf in between.
It's not difficult when we see "the dead" Paul is referring to is Christ,
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1Cor.15:12
He's saying if our Lord didn't rise, why are people baptized for him.
Why are you trying to contradict the words of Christ? Hades is a place as much as Heaven is a place. So kindly stop spreading misinformation.
I don't see Abraham guarding the gate or there being a gate. The angels carried Lazarus to Abrahams Bosom, which was a seat at a banquet next to the Host. It was a symbolic representation of the inherited promises that the Jews looked for when they were to sit at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of God. No gate in the story.
Hades is a greek word used for the Jewish word Sheol. The word Sheol in the OT is almost always about the place of torment for the unrighteous dead and even those verses where some have said it refers to the grave if analyzed are still probably talking about the place where the unrighteous go. The main verse used to support Sheol as being the grave is when Jacob says that if Benjamin died it would bring his grey hairs down to Sheol. The history of the word Sheol prior to this was of the negative place for the wicked and down in the lower parts of the earth and Jacob was probably saying that was probably where he was going if Benjamin died because he must have done something wrong and it was his wickedness that had caused him so much loss of wife and sons. He expected to go to Sheol.
In the Greek language they simply used Hades for the same concept without intended to support Greek mythology or refer to any of that nonsense. Hell is the English version of the same place. Sheol/Hades/Hell all the same place.
I could be wrong, but that is where I am at on this journey of discovery so far.
What I meant by this was that the passage context determined where 'dead' was 'physical' and where it was 'spiritual'.
That place is called Sheol in the OT, and Hades is just using the Greek deity’s name for it. A place has no potential to prevail over anything, a place couldn’t be following a horseman, a place couldn’t be cast into the lake of fire.
I don't see Abraham guarding the gate or there being a gate. The angels carried Lazarus to Abrahams Bosom, which was a seat at a banquet next to the Host. It was a symbolic representation of the inherited promises that the Jews looked for when they were to sit at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of God. No gate in the story.
Hades is a greek word used for the Jewish word Sheol. The word Sheol in the OT is almost always about the place of torment for the unrighteous dead and even those verses where some have said it refers to the grave if analyzed are still probably talking about the place where the unrighteous go. The main verse used to support Sheol as being the grave is when Jacob says that if Benjamin died it would bring his grey hairs down to Sheol. The history of the word Sheol prior to this was of the negative place for the wicked and down in the lower parts of the earth and Jacob was probably saying that was probably where he was going if Benjamin died because he must have done something wrong and it was his wickedness that had caused him so much loss of wife and sons. He expected to go to Sheol.
In the Greek language they simply used Hades for the same concept without intended to support Greek mythology or refer to any of that nonsense. Hell is the English version of the same place. Sheol/Hades/Hell all the same place.
I could be wrong, but that is where I am at on this journey of discovery so far.
“Gatekeeper” is just a figure of speech. Could be replaced with guard or warden. Point is, the rich man’s soul had an encounter with Abraham, and Abraham didn’t let him in, so Abraham did play an important role in there.
Hi, Amanuensis.
I've only read a few posts on the first page of this thread, so I don't know whether or not anyone else here has already mentioned what I'm about to say.
In either case, if we continue on just a bit with what Peter said, then I believe that we get more very relevant information.
Here's a fuller context of what Peter said:
I Peter chapter 3
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
[21] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[22] Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
I Peter chapter 4
[1] Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
[2] That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
[3] For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
[4] Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
[5] Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
[6] For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
It seems to me that Peter is referring to the same exact "spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing" (I Peter 3:19-20) in I Peter 4:6.
In other words, those dead to whom the gospel was preached.
Why was the gospel preached to them?
Well, it seems to me that Peter gave us the exact reason why when he said "For for this cause was the gospel preached also unto them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" (I Peter 4:6).
This understanding would also perfectly align itself with what Peter had just finished saying in the previous verse, namely this:
"Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead" (I Peter 4:5).
Again, in both verses, we're reading about judgment.
In verse 5, it's Christ judging the quick, or the living, and the dead.
In verse 6, it's Christ preaching the gospel specifically to them that were dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Whatever type of judgment this was, we know, from other scriptures, that it wasn't the final Great White Throne judgment because that doesn't occur until the end of Christ's Millennial Reign (Revelation 20:7-15).
Anyhow, as I suggested earlier, I believe that these additional words of Peter are very relevant to the question at hand.
Really? More crazy and bizarre ideas being presented on Christian Chat. We now need a separate section titled "Bizarre Theology".
1 Corinthians 15:29It's not difficult when we see "the dead" Paul is referring to is Christ,
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1Cor.15:12
He's saying if our Lord didn't rise, why are people baptized for him.
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
Interesting interpretation.
Can you show from the text in 1 Corinthians 15:29 that it is speaking of Christ when referring to those who are "baptized for the dead" using hermeneutics?
It seems to refer to a practice of baptizing the dead that the Corinthians may have practiced, but that seems uncertain.