Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Inquisitor]

FreeGrace2 said:
Far too many people totally misunderstand James.

A "dead faith" is a faith without deeds. That does NOT mean an unsaving faith. There is no such thing as an unsaving faith.

We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8 Do you believe that or not.

I don't think either James 2:18 or Eph 2:8 are so vague that opinions are necessary. They are very plainly stated verses.


I'm sure you are trying to force this metaphor to being cast into hell. Well, that does not work. James 2:18 stands in spite of your attempt to bring in a metaphor which has NO relationship to hell at all.

A tree that doesn't bear fruit is a tree that can't be identified. Which is James' point in 2:18.


If you are not, then why even quote this verse? Most people quote this verse in an attempt to show that works are required for salvation.

The words "destruction of the flesh" refers to physical death as a result of God's discipline. We see this clearly in 1 Cor 11:30, and other verses. Like 1 Cor 5:5 and the incestuous believer in Corinth.

The words "reap eternal life" doesn't mean earn eternal life, but earn reward in eternity.

Instead of "sowing to the Spirit" many believers are guilty of "grieving the Spirit" in Eph 4:30 or "quenching the Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19.


Amen! And Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. And He gave no exceptions to that promise.

Here is one point I will address now.

It seems you are confusing two different concepts in the New Testament.

Here are the two concepts; the spiritual walk and good works that you do.

Spiritual walk is a personal acceptance and application of the spiritual gifts into one's life, i.e., sowing to the Spirit.

Works are a personal service towards others, towards the church, towards society.

They are different entities.

The spiritual walk is not a good work.

Now for the text below.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

This was your reply.

"If you are not, then why even quote this verse? Most people quote this verse in an attempt to show that works are required for salvation."

I told you to be careful.

The verse above (Galatians 6:8) concerns sowing to the Holy Spirit and not to good works.

If you read the verse carefully, the meaning is straight forward.

Why would you even mention 'works'?

Someone is wrong and someone is right here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is one point I will address now.

OK, ignore all my points.

It seems you are confusing two different concepts in the New Testament.

Here are the two concepts; the spiritual walk and good works that you do.

Nope. They are the same thing. A believer who walks in the Spirit WILL perform the fruit of the Spirit. See? Same thing.

Spiritual walk is a personal acceptance and application of the spiritual gifts into one's life, i.e., sowing to the Spirit.

That's what I said, but in different words.

Works are a personal service towards others, towards the church, towards society.

Both are about lifestyle. Undeniable.

They are different entities.

We will disagree.

The spiritual walk is not a good work.

The spiritual walk produces good works. Not materially different.

Can a spiritual walk produce no good works? No.

Now for the text below.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

This was your reply.

"If you are not, then why even quote this verse? Most people quote this verse in an attempt to show that works are required for salvation."

I told you to be careful.

Ah, and I WAS.

The verse above (Galatians 6:8) concerns sowing to the Holy Spirit and not to good works.

Since we disagree about a spiritual walk and good works, your conclusion will be different from mine.

If you read the verse carefully, the meaning is straight forward.

Well, I do agree with this.

Why would you even mention 'works'?

Could you show me where I mentioned "works"? I addressed Gal 6:8.

Someone is wrong and someone is right here.

In every debate/discussion, either one is right and one is wrong, or both are wrong.

When 2 don't agree, they both can't be right.

 

[Goliath]

FreeGrace2 said:
Disagree. Because Jesus' sacrifice REMOVES the sin barrier, we have nothing to remove, so your comment "But we must use his sacrifice to remove that barrier" is false. But since you think so, how would that work in your theology. iow, how would a person "use Christ's sactifice to remove that barrier"? Thanks.

Not that it matters, but you were the one who said, REMOVES the sin barrier.
I agree...but you saying I said it. I mention it...because it was a confusing statement.
And please don't call people idiots. They are either more knowledgeable than you, or they are ignorant of the truth...but just because they don't believe as you do...doesn't make them an idiot.
And ones experience is also called their testimony and teachers use their testimonies, to teach. Notice how Paul used his salvation experience quite extensively throughout his epistles.

Now as your question.
Sin separates man from God, and Yes, that separation could be called a barrier. That's what a barrier does..it separates. (Isaiah 59:2)
How does Christ remove that barrier?
When someone confesses their sin, in his name, they are forgiven. That forgiveness removes the sin which separates us from God.
Now I don't expect you to believe me, use your own experience.
In view of your beliefs, you probably don't confess your sin before God. So, if you confess your sins, you will have your own experience. May take a little while to notice a difference, but give it at least a day.

 

[Inquisitor]

OK, ignore all my points.

Not ignoring your points, it just takes time to cover them.

Both are about lifestyle. Undeniable.

The spiritual gifts are church inclusive. Works are both inside and outside church.

The spiritual walk produces good works. Not materially different.

Can a spiritual walk produce no good works? No.

Works are an application of the spiritual life.

The spiritual gifts are church orientated.

Whereas works are not restricted to the church.

You seem to hold the opinion that, if someone believes in Jesus, then they are automatically saved?

That is not necessarily correct.

You said the following.

A tree that doesn't bear fruit is a tree that can't be identified. Which is James' point in 2:18.

Matthew 7:16–23
By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’.

You said a tree that doesn't produce fruit can't be identified. That is painfully incorrect. We are told by Jesus one way to identify other Christians. Incidentally, trees that do not produce fruit are thrown into the fire.

Hebrews 6:7-8
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Again, no fruit, incinerated.

There appears to be a caveat according to Jesus and the author of Hebrews.

I do not think you can maintain that idea, the idea that a Christian can just believe and be saved.

Now don't get me wrong.

I hold Ephesians 2:8, very tightly, by grace through faith. There is no other way to be saved.

Yet, the tree must bear fruit, we must walk in the Spirit, we must love others.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Far too many people totally misunderstand James.

A "dead faith" is a faith without deeds. That does NOT mean an unsaving faith. There is no such thing as an unsaving faith.

We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8 Do you believe that or not.

Nope. You drive a car, you have faith in that car's manufacturer; you use an iPhone, you have faith in Apple; you eat a meal, you have faith in the cook, the retailer and the farmer; you ask a friend to run an errand, you have faith in that friend. We live by faith everyday without awareness, but obviously none of those is saving faith sustained by the spirit instead of sight or might. As you said, we are saved by grace through faith - in Christ, and works and deeds are living proof of that salvation. There gotta be at least some change from those sinful, destructive behaviors, a relief from the past issues, at least some improvement. If there's nothing, then how could one claim that he's saved? Saved from what?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not that it matters, but you were the one who said, REMOVES the sin barrier.
I agree...but you saying I said it. I mention it...because it was a confusing statement.
And please don't call people idiots. They are either more knowledgeable than you, or they are ignorant of the truth...but just because they don't believe as you do...doesn't make them an idiot.
And ones experience is also called their testimony and teachers use their testimonies, to teach. Notice how Paul used his salvation experience quite extensively throughout his epistles.

Until Jesus died and paid the full price of justice for our sins, there was a barrier between man and God. Jesus' death removed that barrier, so that man is able to respond to the gospel.

Now as your question.
Sin separates man from God, and Yes, that separation could be called a barrier. That's what a barrier does..it separates. (Isaiah 59:2)
How does Christ remove that barrier?
When someone confesses their sin, in his name, they are forgiven. That forgiveness removes the sin which separates us from God.
Now I don't expect you to believe me, use your own experience.
In view of your beliefs, you probably don't confess your sin before God. So, if you confess your sins, you will have your own experience. May take a little while to notice a difference, but give it at least a day.

Confession of sin by a believer results in cleansing and a restoration of fellowship with the Lord.

It is required for spiritual growth. No believer can grow up in their salvation when out of fellowship.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You seem to hold the opinion that, if someone believes in Jesus, then they are automatically saved?

That is not necessarily correct.

It IS necessarily correct. Paul's answer to the jailer. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, Acts 10:43, Eph 2:8,9 and many more.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There gotta be at least some change from those sinful, destructive behaviors, a relief from the past issues, at least some improvement. If there's nothing, then how could one claim that he's saved? Saved from what?

This is your opinion talking. What do you mean by "there gotta be.....". That's just your emotions.

No, there doesn't "gotta be...". What there IS in the Bible are commands FOR change.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Melach]

The difference between faith and belief is faith is an action word (even demons believe). Faith without works is dead. I can believe a chair will support me if I sit down on it; but it requires faith to act on that belief and sit down.

I believe the confusion arises from the idea that salvation is like a magic formula: say a few magic words and *poof*, you're in the club. This couldn't be more wrong. Saving faith is accompanied by acts of obedience—ongoing acts of obedience.

But it's also wrong to think that works alone can save.

well said. i believe works are part of the salvation gift God gives us.

the golden chain of redemption:

romans 8:29-31
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

 

[Melach]

It IS necessarily correct. Paul's answer to the jailer. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, Acts 10:43, Eph 2:8,9 and many more.

unless one believes in vain that is. which is possible in the bible. not only is it in 1 corinthians 15:1-4 but its also clearly mentioned in the parable of the sower, where some people believe for a while then fall away.

doesnt sound very good.

 

[Melach]

Far too many people totally misunderstand James.

A "dead faith" is a faith without deeds. That does NOT mean an unsaving faith. There is no such thing as an unsaving faith.

We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8 Do you believe that or not.


The point of James in 2:14-26 is found in v.18
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

This is a challenge by "someone" to another who has faith. The "someone" says that he "has deeds". The challenge is to demonstrate your faith WITHOUT DEEDS. And the "someone" ends with "I will show you MY FAITH by my deeds."

James wanted believers to demonstrate their faith through works/deeds. He was addressing those who were already saved, and he was encouraging them to demonstrate their faith to others.


I believe you have just been.

wow so dead faith saves? cant take what you say seriously. sounds something steven anderson would say.

"im saved by dead faith" that is just a joke really.

 

[DavidTree]

It was my reaction to one who equates believing to works. Scripture does no such thing to the gift of faith.
You seem to have a mental block in understanding that...
works/law is something we must do in order to attain/merit.
grace is given on account of what Jesus has done...i.e. fulfilled all righteousness in our stead.
Believing, as a gift takes hold of grace...not works/law etc.

Romans 4:16 (KJV) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Galatians 3:12 (KJV) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Both yourself and Brother JaumeJ are correct according to the Word.

Now SEE in one passage of Scripture how the Holy Spirit says this: Ephesians 2:4-10

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.



Crossnote = For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.

JaumeJ = For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I believe BOTH are True according to the Word of God = so should everyone who calls on the Name Above all names = Jesus the Christ

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This is your opinion talking. What do you mean by "there gotta be.....". That's just your emotions.

No, there doesn't "gotta be...". What there IS in the Bible are commands FOR change.

Do you see the difference?

What the Bible commands is one thing, whether an individual accepts it is another. Jesus sowed the same seeds of the gospel, but the soils that receive it are vastly different. A saving faith is the last soil that allows the seed to take root, to germinate and eventually, yield spiritual fruit, and that’s the proof. I can’t deceive myself with false assurance that I’m saved and entitled to go to heaven if I’m still struggling with demons from my past, giving my time, energy and money to serve those idols. And if there’s no proof that one is saved in this life, how could he be sure that he’s saved in the next life?

 

[DavidTree]

What the Bible commands is one thing, whether an individual accepts it is another. Jesus sowed the same seeds of the gospel, but the soils that receive it are vastly different. A saving faith is the last soil that allows the seed to take root, to germinate and eventually, yield spiritual fruit, and that’s the proof. I can’t deceive myself with false assurance that I’m saved and entitled to go to heaven if I’m still struggling with demons from my past, giving my time, energy and money to serve those idols. And if there’s no proof that one is saved in this life, how could he be sure that he’s saved in the next life?

Good points and fully supported by Scripture.

The most important aspect of Salvation is Grace
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

The thief on the cross next to our LORD was saved immediately by Grace thru faith in the Messiah.

i am sure there are many a 'death bed' confession unto salvation, in heaven today.

 

[Gideon300]

Here are some of the shocking (to me) findings in the poll (2020) cited below...

"A majority of Americans, a new survey finds, no longer believe that Jesus Christ is the way to eternal salvation. Faith (generally) and good works, they say, will do the trick "

"Equally as startling, it was found that a majority of people who describe themselves as Christian (52%) believe that a person can gain eternal salvation by “being or doing good.” That includes close to half of all adults associated with Pentecostal (46%), mainline Protestant (44%), and evangelical (41%) churches. As expected, a much larger share of Catholics (70%) embrace that point of view."

This salvation-can-be-earned perspective, Barna says, fits well with other widely held views identified in the American Worldview Inventory 2020 that are at odds with biblical teaching.
Those have included:


• There is no absolute moral truth (58%)
• Basis of truth are factors or sources other than God (58%)
• Right/wrong determined by factors other than the Bible (77%)
• The Bible is not the authoritative and true word of God (59%)
• People are basically good (69%)

"“If you look at some of the dominant elements in the American mind and heart today, as illuminated by the Inventory, most people believe that the purpose of life is feeling good about yourself,” Barna says. “Most people contend that all faiths are of equal value, that entry into God’s eternal presence is determined by one’s personal means of choice and that there are no absolutes to guide or grow us morally.”

more at: https://outreachmagazine.com/resour...s-believe-works-are-the-key-to-salvation.html

No wonder this country is in the mess it's in.

There is nothing new about this. According to surveys, about 4% of churchgoers are born again. I first came across this figure in the early 1980's. I was sceptical at first, but it makes sense to me now. The term "Christian" is used way to loosely. I'll be glad when the self deceived and pretenders decide it's all too hard and quit - or even better, get real and get born again.

 

[Gideon300]

What the Bible commands is one thing, whether an individual accepts it is another. Jesus sowed the same seeds of the gospel, but the soils that receive it are vastly different. A saving faith is the last soil that allows the seed to take root, to germinate and eventually, yield spiritual fruit, and that’s the proof. I can’t deceive myself with false assurance that I’m saved and entitled to go to heaven if I’m still struggling with demons from my past, giving my time, energy and money to serve those idols. And if there’s no proof that one is saved in this life, how could he be sure that he’s saved in the next life?

If you base salvation on what you do, you will never make it. Many Christians (or supposed Christians) have no idea what it means to be saved. Much of the problem is due to the wrong emphasis in preaching. When I read Ephesians, for example, the first few chapters are all about what Christ has done for us by His death and resurrection. It's our new birthright. Then Paul goes into what kind of life we should be living. But the basis is who we are in Christ. Too many people try to live the Christian life without knowing the power of the life of Christ within.

There are two salvations. The first is instant, to be born again and hence already in heaven. The second salvation is the salvation of the soul. That is progressive, a lifetime process that God brings to pass by His word, His discipline, mercy, grace and the power of His Holy Spirit. A Christian cannot be unborn again. Eternal life is eternal. It is God who puts us into Christ. Who then will take us out?

Don't put the cart before the horse. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to produce fruit. Our work is to believe Christ (John 6:29). Lord Jesus gives us an inner desire to do God's will. Then He gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to do God's will. If we strive in our own strength, we will fail. That's the message of Romans 7. Romans 8 is the answer.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If you base salvation on what you do, you will never make it. Many Christians (or supposed Christians) have no idea what it means to be saved. Much of the problem is due to the wrong emphasis in preaching. When I read Ephesians, for example, the first few chapters are all about what Christ has done for us by His death and resurrection. It's our new birthright. Then Paul goes into what kind of life we should be living. But the basis is who we are in Christ. Too many people try to live the Christian life without knowing the power of the life of Christ within.

There are two salvations. The first is instant, to be born again and hence already in heaven. The second salvation is the salvation of the soul. That is progressive, a lifetime process that God brings to pass by His word, His discipline, mercy, grace and the power of His Holy Spirit. A Christian cannot be unborn again. Eternal life is eternal. It is God who puts us into Christ. Who then will take us out?

Don't put the cart before the horse. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to produce fruit. Our work is to believe Christ (John 6:29). Lord Jesus gives us an inner desire to do God's will. Then He gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to do God's will. If we strive in our own strength, we will fail. That's the message of Romans 7. Romans 8 is the answer.

There's only one salvation. Of course there's nothing I can do to earn salvation, but what I do shows to others and myself whether I'm truly saved or living in a delusion. Yes, eternal life is eternal - for both true believers and unbelievers, but on opposite directions. In essence, eternal life is the extension of the current trajectory of your spiritual life - in eternity. I think somewhere near the end of Revelation says that those who are righteous, let them be righteous still; those who are filthy, let them be filthy still. There you have it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It IS necessarily correct. Paul's answer to the jailer. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, Acts 10:43, Eph 2:8,9 and many more.

unless one believes in vain that is.

OK, let's discuss 1 Cor 15:2, where we find "in vain". The single Greek word means "without reason". Do you know what that means?

It means there is no object in your believing. Unless a person is fully trusting (believing) that Jesus IS the Son of God and that He DID die on the cross for your sins and that He WILL save everyone who trusts in Him, no one will be saved.

So those who add anything else to that, such as being water baptized, circumcised, good works, etc, etc, etc, do NOT have true gospel.

which is possible in the bible. not only is it in 1 corinthians 15:1-4 but its also clearly mentioned in the parable of the sower, where some people believe for a while then fall away.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is NOTHING about believing "in vain" in that or any other parable. Luke 8:13 is very clear. They believed. The parenthetical phrase "for a while" changes nothing.

John 5:24 says in very plain words that those believing (present tense) HAVE (as in POSSESS) eternal life, also present tense.

So you can try to "get around it", but you won't. The Bible is clear. When a person believes in Christ for salvation, they POSSESS
eternal life. That is NOT "in vain".

Jesus was teaching about the things that distract believers (saved people) from producing fruit.
First soil was NOT saved. No plants grew.
2nd - 4th soils WERE saved, because plants grew in EACH of those soils. Representing new life from the seed.

doesnt sound very good.

Your interpretation doesn't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

wow so dead faith saves?

I wish you had actually read all my post. Where I explained that 2:18 is the summary of that section of Scripture.

But, faith SAVES. To say a "dead faith" is NO faith is about as smart as saying a dead body is NO body.

You want to go with that?

cant take what you say seriously. sounds something steven anderson would say.

I don't know him and not interested in your opinion.

If you can't read 2:18 and realize the point James made, then there's no point in discussion.

"im saved by dead faith" that is just a joke really.

What you are really saying here is that you NEED YOUR own works to help Christ save you.

Well, the Bible doesn't teach that anywhere, as much as you presume so.

We are saved by grace through faith. Not "faith plus works" or "faith plus baptism" or any other addition.

God doesnt' need ANY addition from sinful human beings to save them.

We are saved by grace. That means we don't deserve it, but He still does it.

We are saved through faith. This is the sole means of our salvation. Simply trusting what Jesus says about salvation.

He did ALL the work. All the work a human can possibly do is smelly to God. Isa 64:6

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

"filthy rags". The Hebrew is a bit more clear. It means "used menstrual rags". That's what God thinks of your righteousness.

So, good luck adding your filthy rags to faith in Christ. Doesn't work. Never has and never will.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What the Bible commands is one thing, whether an individual accepts it is another. Jesus sowed the same seeds of the gospel, but the soils that receive it are vastly different. A saving faith is the last soil that allows the seed to take root, to germinate and eventually, yield spiritual fruit, and that’s the proof.

The parable of soils is about the things that distract and prevent a SAVED person from producing fruit.
1st soil was NOT saved and produced NO plants.
2nd-4th soils WERE saved and produced plants. But soils 2 and 3 were distracted and the plants withered and failed to produce fruit.

That was Jesus' point. It is amazing how many pastors fail to understand this simple parable.

I can’t deceive myself with false assurance that I’m saved and entitled to go to heaven if I’m still struggling with demons from my past, giving my time, energy and money to serve those idols.

Wow, so the promise/guarantee that Jesus gives believers in John 10:28 is a deception then???? Are you serious?

And if there’s no proof that one is saved in this life, how could he be sure that he’s saved in the next life?

Lack of "proof" as you call it doesn't mean lack of salvation. That is a satanic fallacy, designed to keep believers depressed, etc.

Our assurance is in our trust in HIM to save us. Not our production to save us. See? That's your confusion.

You think you are saved only if you are pleased with your own production. That is faith in SELF. That kind of faith is "in vain".