FreeGrace2 said:
His whole doctrine of requiring water baptism to be in the resurrection is based on a verse that no commentator even understands. There are no historical records to explain the practice of proxy baptism.
I said "I understand that verse."
Really? Then please explain what Paul was referring to, meaning the purpose of this proxy baptism.
To clarify, I said I understand the
verse (which is more important than understanding proxy baptism) Here's the verse:
1 Corinthians 15:29 KJV
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Paul was making a point. And he had a stated practice of meeting people at their level, so to speak (
1 Cor. 9:20-22)
He presented the argument for
resurrection from the dead AS IF he were one who believes in the process of proxy baptism because apparently he was speaking to some who DID believe in the process of proxy baptism.... So he makes his point using THEIR doctrine. "Proxy baptism is
completely worthless without
resurrection from the dead being an absolue
FACT"
It's more important for them to understand resurrection from the dead FIRST, then IF they get that, he could address the matter of proxy baptism. And, like me, he probably knows that if they learn how to pray and let God teach them, God is quite willing to show them more accurate information about baptism, too. How do you think He and Peter wrote what they wrote (
Rom 6:4-5, Col. 2:11-12, 1 Peter 3:21, etc)
if they didn't know how to go to the Lord and receive new information? The
Holy Ghost gives us all things pertaining to life and Godliness (
2 Pet 1:3), and we need no man (commentator) to teach us (
1 John 2:27)
As for the following comment:
If it were that easy, then there should be NO disagreements among any believers.
You are correct, there
SHOULD be no disagreements among any believers. But your next comment is accurate as well:
Yet, 2 believers can come away from a verse with exactly opposite understandings.
I'll tell you a few reasons this happens:
- Ignorance
- Laziness
- Lying/deceit
Ignorance: (means they don't know). Many in and out of the body of Christ simply DO NOT KNOW how to pray until God answers. Therefore they
don't pray until God answers. This means they're left with their own (almost always wrong) understanding.
Laziness: (means even if they do know how, they're not willing to put in the required effort). They're not going to receive an answer... Not because they don't know how to pray, but because they're LAZY and
won't pray until God answers. End result = they, too are left with their own (almost always wrong) understanding.
Lying/deceit: (means they would rather lie to you than be honest) These are the classic Scribes and Pharisees. They want to LOOK like they know what they're talking about (so they say something as convincing as possible). But of a truth, they are usually both
ignorant AND lazy... and they don't want to admit it. These also
don't and/or won't actually pray until God answers...because they don't want to be found out. (
John 3:20)
Most churches are predominantly filled with these three types of people. Therefore they are filled with a myriad of fleshly interpretations... And telling them to pray about something is not going to produce agreement.
Not that this always happens (we've got ignorance, laziness and lying/deceit in our church sometimes, too) But I was so happy when we used to get into heated debates/arguments (with exactly OPPOSITE understandings) at bible studies and my wise sister-in-law would say " We all know how to pray. Every one of us can go to God and let God open our understandings. God is no respector of persons. He's willing to teach all that come unto him. So If we all pray, He will teach us all. And anyone not willing to go to God with their questions is going to be deceived anyway. So there's no need for us to argue." And then we stopped arguing and let each other pray. I'm willing to pray until God answers and so was she. And I loved it when God would show us the same thing on the same day even if we were separated by states. It could be days or months or years later, but He'd show us both (and others who prayed). And there was agreement. (except among the WILLINGLY ignorant, lazy and lying/deceitful). The NON-lazy, honest-yet-ignorant would begin to pray (because they really wanted to know, and know how to get stuff from God) and he would teach them same as the more elder in the bunch. That's how I learned.
Sorry so long of a post. It all seemed to go together.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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