Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Inquisitor]

What does it mean to be saved in your opinion?

I could not resist that question, sorry.

Colossians 1:13-14
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Looks like Jesus is the master and commander of our salvation, I am glad he did not leave it up to us.

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

What does it mean to be saved in your opinion?

The resurrection. We will all die because of our sins, and we do deserve that, but the Lord God will rise us out of the grave at the end of time as he promised. This is the entire point of our faith.

 

[Inquisitor]

I say didn't say Ananias and Sapphira in particular. King Saul was the better example I had in mind, or like King Solomon, and because they did fairly heroic stuff at first.

Actually, King David was the black horse in the race, the rank outsider. King David had a fellow killed so he could have his wife. Yet God forgave King David.

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

Post those scriptures then.

Again? Okay.

Acts 23:6
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

Actually, King David was the black horse in the race, the rank outsider. King David had a fellow killed so he could have his wife. Yet God forgave King David.

That is true, but David never lost the faith though. David acknowledged his grave error and bore his punishment and continued believing. Saul and Solomon on the other hand are kind of tragic, both started so well, but then ended so badly. Another good example is also Jehu the king of Israel, started great, very strong, but fell away.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Mat 7:21-23 is a difficult text. I believe the Lord is referring to Judas, the exorcists of the Pharisees etc who abused the Holy Name of the Lord Jesus, while living an evil life (note that Acts 19 backs this up: "13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.")

This is the commentary of Church Father St. John Chrysostom on Mat 7:21: "neither faith nor miracles avail ought where there is not a good life; as Paul also declares, “If I have faith that I may remove mountains, but have not charity, I am nothing.” [1 Cor 13:2] ...

But note that He says, “in my name,” not in My Spirit; for they prophesy in the name of Christ, but with the spirit of the Devil; such are the diviners. But they may be known by this, that the Devil sometimes speaks falsely, the Holy Spirit never. However it is permitted to the Devil sometimes to speak the truth, that he may commend his lying by this his rare truth. Yet they cast out daemons in the name of Christ, though they have the spirit of his enemy; or rather, they do not cast them out, but seem only to cast them out, the daemons acting in concert with them. Also they do mighty works, that is, miracles, not such as are useful and necessary, but useless and fruitless."

 

[posthuman]

I say didn't say Ananias and Sapphira in particular. King Saul was the better example I had in mind, or like King Solomon, and because they did fairly heroic stuff at first.

i don't think we have much apart from 'Ananias & Sapphira attended church'

do you think God personally strikes people dead for mundane sins?
how many times in scripture has that happened?
i think they did something incredibly wicked.

That is a very harsh and unjustified judgment. Ananias and Sapphira were a good Christian couple who were probably snared by the devil, and as a result lied to God. This can happen to any Christian, but at that stage in the history of the Church, God felt it necessary to deal with this as "the sin unto death". Which meant premature death for genuine believers. Peter did not accuse them as you have done, so you owe them an apology.

Compare scripture with scripture.
Who else has God Himself struck dead in front of the whole congregation?

 

[posthuman]

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back [part] of the price of the land for yourself?

The Bible says Satan, not the Holy Spirit, filled their hearts

 

[posthuman]

Every living soul will be resurrected. Some to judgment and some to eternal life

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

i don't think we have much apart from 'Ananias & Sapphira attended church'

do you think God personally strikes people dead for mundane sins?
how many times in scripture has that happened?
i think they did something incredibly wicked.


Compare scripture with scripture.
Who else has God Himself struck dead in front of the whole congregation?

God certainly strikes people and whole nations down all the time, even still. In fact he's pouring out his Four Sore Judgements on America most certainly, and it seems on the other lands too.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Who else has God Himself struck dead in front of the whole congregation?

Neither you nor I know this. But we do know that there is "a sin unto death" and genuine Christians -- "brothers" -- can be struck down and die prematurely: If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (1 John 5:16,17)

Paul says the same thing and warns believers to examine themselves before partaking of the Lord's Supper: But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep [die prematurely]. (1 Cor 11:28-30)

Ananias and Sapphira were genuine Christians who initially purposed in their hearts to sell all their land and give all the proceeds to God. They could have said to themselves that they would retain a small portion for their own use, and God would certainly have accepted that. But they changed their mind and while claiming to have given all did not do so. Therefore they were struck down as an object lesson to all the other believers, and to succeeding generations.

Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 gives us a warning in this connection: When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?

 

[Evmur]

I don't believe in OSAS. You have cited many references to disprove it. My favorite reference for the negation of OSAS is the parable of the sower and the seed. The sower is Jesus and the seed is the gift of faith. Many will receive the seed into their hearts, only later to lose it through the snares/thorns and things of the world strangling their faith.

Why do you do that? Jesus said the seed is the word of God.

There is no question over the word of God, only the soil or lack or unsuitability of it.

The unsuitable soil is so because it is uncultivated, the rocks and stones have not been removed, the weeds have not been dealt with. The thorns and thistles.

The good soil is so because it has been cultivated, it is made ready to receive the seed. When the good cultivated soil receives the word the outcome is no doubt what so ever. It will bear fruit, some 30 fold, some 60 fold, some 100 fold.

... there is hope for the uncultivated soil .... it can be worked on.

 

[Evmur]

So let's discuss the doctrine/issue of so-called Conditional Security vs Eternal Security. Do you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved? I believe Salvation is a Combination of the Grace of Justification+the Grace of Perseverance i.e. Salvation=Justification+Perseverance. So, after Justification, we must pray for perseverance, otherwise we risk being cut off or falling away, as the Bible records that some have done. By God's Grace, we can persevere to the end.

The famous saying of Our Lord is: "But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Mat 24:13)

Three or four passages to start off the discussion below:

1. John 15: "2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit ... 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Seems to be echoed in Romans 11:22: "22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

2. Heb 6:4-6:
"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

3. 2 Pet 2:20-22:

"20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

These verses very clearly seem to teach that Justification!=(not equal to)Salvation. Initial Justification+Final Perseverance = Full Salvation. Thoughts?

God Bless,
Xavier.

Salvation is a free gift ... not a reward. OSAS is a derogatory term. The bible is ETERNAL LIFE do you have it or not?

What have you ever done that earned you eternal life? what could you ever do now that will earn it? You will either receive it as a free gift or you shan't have it.

Every one of those scriptures can be read differently
2. Peter 2 -20 for example could well be speaking about Judas Iscariot, he fits exactly. Judas was never saved, he turned away from the holy commandment. The same is true of Hebrews 2 - 6.

God does not save us because we are like John Wayne, having true grit.

Just look at Peter and Judas Iscariot side by side.

When Jesus said one of you will betray ALL the disciples sorrowed, they didn't know who Jesus meant. Peter was especially concerned to know who it was.

Judas betrayed Jesus, Peter denied Him 3 times can YOU differentiate between them? they both went out and wept bitterly. Peter must have thought he had blown it.

Here is the difference. "Peter son of Jonas Satan has demanded to have you to sift you like wheat but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail and when you have turned again strengthen your brethren"

There is NO WAY Peter could lose his salvation.

 

[Evmur]

God certainly strikes people and whole nations down all the time, even still. In fact he's pouring out his Four Sore Judgements on America most certainly, and it seems on the other lands too.

This is not true, God has set aside a day when He will judge the world. It is rare thing for God to punish sin directly ... just THINK of all the people in history who would be candidates for God's punishment.

Wars and famines happen because of the misjudgements of men. Indirectly it is because they strayed away from God and forsaken godly wisdom.

 

[Evmur]

Our salvation is very simple. We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.
God gave us grace to believe in Christ, so we should make it through life by believing in the Lord.
So, no, I don't believe in OSAS. It is totally our choice. God doesn't force christians into submission. we voluntarily believe.
Habakkuk 2:4 “Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:16-17 16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

"... by grace through faith and that not of yourselves."

Why do folks still say then it is of themselves?

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

This is not true, God has set aside a day when He will judge the world. It is rare thing for God to punish sin directly ... just THINK of all the people in history who would be candidates for God's punishment.

Wars and famines happen because of the misjudgements of men. Indirectly it is because they strayed away from God and forsaken godly wisdom.

God is a Living God, he certainly acts still to this day. Raising up nations and casting them down. Woe to the four shameful generations of America that have procured to themselves the four sore judgements of God! Pestilence, famine, disasters, and the Sword. If they will only acknowledge that their ways were grievous and that God judged them he will spare, but if not, then A Sword Cometh.

 

[Evmur]

I say didn't say Ananias and Sapphira in particular. King Saul was the better example I had in mind, or like King Solomon, and because they did fairly heroic stuff at first.

When Samuel appeared to Saul he said "this time tomorrow you will be with me here .... "

Saul was punished ... not damned.

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

When Samuel appeared to Saul he said "this time tomorrow you will be with me here .... "

Saul was punished ... not damned.

Unlike David, Saul did not acknowledge his grave errors but continued indeed moving from error to error from the day he disobeyed the Lord to put the Amalekites to the Sword to the day he inquired of the witch of Endor and even on Gilboa where he fell by his own hand thrusting himself through with the Sword.

 

[Evmur]

God is a Living God, he certainly acts still to this day. Raising up nations and casting them down. Woe to the four shameful generations of America that have procured to themselves the four sore judgements of God! Pestilence, famine, disasters, and the Sword. If they will only acknowledge that their ways were grievous and that God judged them he will spare, but if not, then A Sword Cometh.

America was born in violence and dishonesty, it became great and rich through murder and slavery. It has always been a wicked nation.

 

[Evmur]

Unlike David, Saul did not acknowledge his grave errors but continued indeed moving from error to error from the day he disobeyed the Lord to put the Amalekites to the Sword to the day he inquired of the witch of Endor and even on Gilboa where he fell by his own hand thrusting himself through with the Sword.

When the amalakite came to David telling the news of Saul, boasting he had slain Saul, David slew him for daring to stretch forth his hand against God's anointed. David composed an eulogy in praise of Saul.

Righteous Jonathon also perished with Saul.

Saul was punished, he was not damned.