Hi Xavier,
How much faith must one have until God’s transforming work begins?
Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation
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How much faith must one have until God’s transforming work begins?
I place my faith in Jesus Christ. Being that this is a Christian chat site it should go without saying that if you believe in Him you’re putting your faith in Him, but obviously that’s not the case.
Sadly I see some people straining out a gnat yet swallowing a camel which is heartbreaking because we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
once again i did not say anything about faith.
Here are my thoughts on faith
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Lets look again
I see no difference in you saying this, and saying faith is a work. They are both the same to me Thats why I said what you said.
We do not chose God (not sure where this thought even comes from). We chose to trust him, and receive his salvation. The notion that the tax collector chose God makes no sense. The tax collector chose to humble himself and fall on his face and call out to God. Instead of continuing in unbelief. He did not chose God
Again, Dispensational teaching does not teach we chose God. I do not know where this false thinking about my faith comes from.
This is not talking about the faith that saves, This is talking about a believer's faith. People have special gifts. These gifts are based on the measure of faith God gives.
It has nothing to do with whether a man chooses to trust in Gods way for salvation. God gives the people the capacity and means to trust him. Its up to them whether they chose to act on that or not.
Sadly. many do not. and will die in unbelief
We just want to be sure we have the right Jesus…
2 Corinthians 11:4 KJV
[4] For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
I see no difference in you saying this, and saying faith is a work. They are both the same to me Thats why I said what you said.
So would you accept other members changing what you post because that is there understanding. Had you said something like " i see them the same" in your first reply my thoughts of you would be quite different. .
My understanding of Dispensationalism comes from being into for about 40 years.
op: "works for salvation"?
Yes, and no. What? Well, IF we study According to rule # 2 of
Bible study Rules, we have The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:
Salvation by "faith PLUS works" Is Scriptural, As Follows:
In God's Context of prophecy and law, He Commissioned The Twelve,
Sending them to water baptize, And Taught them to teach the
gospel of the kingdom, with:
1)
water baptism "for the remission of sins" / induction into the Israeli priest-
hood (Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke 7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25; #'s 4,9,10 here)
2) James, to the TWELVE tribes Of Israel (James 1:1), Confirms the above with:
"faith without works is Dead, being Alone!" (James 2:20,24,26)
3) Christ, on the earth, Confirms the above with "Judgment Teaching" of
Israel And the nations, "works to enter the kingdom" (Matthew 25:31-46)
prophecy/law
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)
Mystery/GRACE (Romans - Philemon)
Salvation By GRACE Through faith, Apart from all works, Is
Scriptural, In God's New Dispensation (after Transition), As Follows:
In God's Other Context Of Mystery and GRACE, He Commissioned ONE apostle,
sending him Not to water baptize, Teaching him, to tell His ONE Body, The
"preaching Of Jesus Christ, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery," With
The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God (1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Romans 16:25):
1) "GRACE Through faith...not of ourselves...not of works"
(Ephesians 2:8-9); "not of works, but Of Mercy" (Titus 3:5)
2) not water, but "By The Washing Of Regeneration,
By The ONE Baptism Of The ONE Holy Spirit"
(Titus 3:5; Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
3) The Judgment for the "members Of The ONE Body" is for rewards
for good/bad works, since ALL sin is PAID For At The CROSS! Note:
"...if any man's works shall be burned he Shall Suffer Loss, But
he himSELF Shall Be Saved!" (1 Corinthians 3:8-15), being "Saved
By GRACE Through faith," Apart from all works (Romans 11:6), Correct?
--------------
Conclusion: please never ever "Mix, as Exactly the Same," What God Calls:
More study: No Other Doctrine But Right Division
GRACE And Peace...
Yes, and no. What? Well, IF we study According to rule # 2 of
Bible study Rules, we have The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:
Salvation by "faith PLUS works" Is Scriptural, As Follows:
In God's Context of prophecy and law, He Commissioned The Twelve,
Sending them to water baptize, And Taught them to teach the
gospel of the kingdom, with:
1)
water baptism "for the remission of sins" / induction into the Israeli priest-
hood (Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke 7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25; #'s 4,9,10 here)
2) James, to the TWELVE tribes Of Israel (James 1:1), Confirms the above with:
"faith without works is Dead, being Alone!" (James 2:20,24,26)
3) Christ, on the earth, Confirms the above with "Judgment Teaching" of
Israel And the nations, "works to enter the kingdom" (Matthew 25:31-46)
prophecy/law
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)
Mystery/GRACE (Romans - Philemon)
Salvation By GRACE Through faith, Apart from all works, Is
Scriptural, In God's New Dispensation (after Transition), As Follows:
In God's Other Context Of Mystery and GRACE, He Commissioned ONE apostle,
sending him Not to water baptize, Teaching him, to tell His ONE Body, The
"preaching Of Jesus Christ, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery," With
The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God (1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Romans 16:25):
1) "GRACE Through faith...not of ourselves...not of works"
(Ephesians 2:8-9); "not of works, but Of Mercy" (Titus 3:5)
2) not water, but "By The Washing Of Regeneration,
By The ONE Baptism Of The ONE Holy Spirit"
(Titus 3:5; Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
3) The Judgment for the "members Of The ONE Body" is for rewards
for good/bad works, since ALL sin is PAID For At The CROSS! Note:
"...if any man's works shall be burned he Shall Suffer Loss, But
he himSELF Shall Be Saved!" (1 Corinthians 3:8-15), being "Saved
By GRACE Through faith," Apart from all works (Romans 11:6), Correct?
--------------
Conclusion: please never ever "Mix, as Exactly the Same," What God Calls:
►►► “Things That Differ” ◄◄◄
More study: No Other Doctrine But Right Division
GRACE And Peace...
I stand by what I said.
I notice you did not even mention the comment about the tax collector and how he did not chose God
Yet in my 40 years of deep dispensational understanding and fellowship with people all over the United States. I have never heard anyone make a claim you have attributed to them
I guess you were in a special group.
You still have not answer my question.
Here is my first post on this topic.#128
Post #131 my reply "Did i say faith was a work ? "
Post#138
Here are my thoughts on faith
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Post #144 Maybe this post shows the misunderstanding I said in post 128 The Americans have had years of dispensational teaching that mankind makes the choice for or against God that in its self is a work. Thinking works work should not be a surprise. Could be my choice of words would have been better to say The Americans have had years of dispensational teaching that mankind makes the choice for or againstGod Salvation that in its self is a work. Thinking works work should not be a surprise.
In Post #144 you said I see no difference in you saying this, and saying faith is a work. They are both the same to me Thats why I said what you said. I will say to you i see no difference in God or Salvation . Is not choosing Salvation choosing God?
Post #146 is just about a repeat and stating i was a dispensationalist for about 40 years . I will add here just for the info: Assemblies of God dispensationalist.
Post# 149 you tell me you stand by your falsehood of my post. As to your thoughts of the tax collector they prove my point.
In post# 130 you Asked 'how is faith a work'
Post #131 my reply "Did i say faith was a work ? "
Post#138
Can your please post my words saying faith is a work? cant find them? cause i dont believe faith is a work. as i posted in # 143
Here are my thoughts on faith
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Post #144 Maybe this post shows the misunderstanding I said in post 128 The Americans have had years of dispensational teaching that mankind makes the choice for or against God that in its self is a work. Thinking works work should not be a surprise. Could be my choice of words would have been better to say The Americans have had years of dispensational teaching that mankind makes the choice for or against
In Post #144 you said I see no difference in you saying this, and saying faith is a work. They are both the same to me Thats why I said what you said. I will say to you i see no difference in God or Salvation . Is not choosing Salvation choosing God?
Post #146 is just about a repeat and stating i was a dispensationalist for about 40 years . I will add here just for the info: Assemblies of God dispensationalist.
Post# 149 you tell me you stand by your falsehood of my post. As to your thoughts of the tax collector they prove my point.
Hi Everlasting Grace.
Did you see the quote from Jn 6:29 above? "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent". Even our faith is the work of God's Grace within us. So if God's work in us (faith) can contribute to our justification, why can't God's works in us (good works done after justification) contribute to our sanctification? I disagree that sanctification is purely works. Sanctification is a fruit of justification, which is by God's Grace, but also requires our co-operation. Justification is instantaneous, Sanctification a process.
Can you explain why many verses in the Bible promise a reward for good works/labors done in faith? Labors done without faith have no reward, as without faith it is impossible to please God, but many verses clearly say each one will be rewarded according to his labors. Example: "8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." (1 Cor 3:8) The works we do after justification are God's works within us. The works we do before justification are our own works. The former sanctify and have a reward in Heaven. The latter do not. It is God's Grace itself that enables us to do these.
In 1 Cor 3:14-15, the same theme is developed: "14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon [i.e. with faith in Jesus Christ as the foundation], he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Cor 3:14-15)
Someone earlier said "works for rewards" is an idea of our "fallen nature". No, it is an idea of many texts in the Bible such as the above.
God Bless.
I am sorry sister. You seem to just keep beating around the bush.
You stated and I quote "makes the choice for or against God that in its self is a work. "
American dispensationalism teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. So in effect. You are claiming, that when we chose to trust God in faith, that we are choosing God, and that is a work.
you can try to spin it if you want.But in fact. that is what you are accusing me and those like me of doing.
As for assembly of God. and them saying that we must CHOSE GOD.
I looked up their main web "https://ag.org/en" and this is what they say about being saved.
1. e. First of all, salvation is necessary. You need to be saved. That fact is clearly taught throughout the Bible. It says, “All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Man in his natural condition is alienated from God. He is a sinner by nature and by practice. He may be a refined sinner-very cultured, decent, and respectable-yet he is a sinner. He must receive forgiveness and cleansing and a new nature in order to be fit for heaven. This is true of every person in the world, even good people. It was to a very religious man that Jesus said, “Ye must be born again” (John 3:7).
2. In the second place, you should notice that it’s our Lord Jesus Christ who saves men. He bore our sins in His own body on the cross, the Bible says (1 Peter 2:24). “Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3). No man can save his own soul. Neither can one man save another’s soul. As the poet put it: “There was no other good enough To pay the price of sin; He only could unlock the gate Of heau’n, and let us in;”
3. The third thing to notice in the text is the simplicity of salvation. Even a child can understand it. All you need to do is “call on the name of the Lord.” Do you remember reading about that night when Jesus was walking on the water, and Peter started doing the same, but suddenly he began to sink? Peter didn’t have time to make a long prayer. He just had time to cry out; “Lord, save me,” but that was enough. The Bible says that “Jesus stretched forth his hand and took hold of him.” He will do the same for you.
Of course, there must be faith in your heart. You must believe these things that you have been reading; namely, that you need to be saved, and that only Christ can save you. Furthermore, you must believe that He will save you. Jesus said, “Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37). You must take action. You must call upon Him.
so what we have here is
1. Faith that I am in a sinner and deserving of judgment
2. Faith that what God has come to offer me, He will provide
3. Call out on the name of the lord, and you will be saved (like in the example above when peter simply called out, and the example of the tax collector who got on his knees and called out)
Can you tell me in the above where assembly of God teaches one must CHOSE GOD? and how THAT IS A WORK?
because I do not see it..
and one last time/ Will you PLEASE tell me how the tax collector CHOSE GOD? and how that was a work?
Hi Crossnote.
How much faith? Even with a little or weak faith, provided one sincerely believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, Justification is instantaneous imho. By Grace, through Faith, one is Justified, and one's former sins are washed away in the Blood of Christ. No works are required for Justification.
Sanctification is a lifelong process and requires Good Works done in response to God's Grace within us.
2 Pet 1 is about Sanctification:
"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Pet 1:5-11)
So, the Apostle teaches, (1) if you add works to faith, "you will rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".
But if you do not, (2) you can become "nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins".
These are two different possible outcomes for the Justified Christian, based on whether he neglects Good Works for Sanctification or not, in response to God's Grace.
God Bless.
did you or did you not say this?
Salvation = Justification + Sanctification + Perseverance.
Playing word games is your thing.. you tell me i beat around the bush when you directly lied about what i posted nice try . You lied for all the world to see with out remorse.
Yes, I did and I stand by it.
Now, please explain 1 Cor 3:8, 14 and 15 cited to you in the last post. Good Works, done with Faith in Christ, have their Reward in Heaven.
2 Pet 1:5-11, which I cited to Crossnote, develops similar themes. It explains what happens if we neglect Good works and if we do not.
God Bless.
Then I stand by the fact that you teach faith plus works salvation.
If salvation is dependent on us sanctifying ourselves and persevering, We are in effect saving ourselves. We are not depending on God to save us.
Salvation is a grace gift. Not a reward. You explain to me how we can EARN and be REWARDED salvation. when it can not be earned. Paul said not of works lest anyone should boast.
Paul also said there will be people who when their works are tried by fire have nothing left but a heap of ash. as all of their works were burned.
He also said, they too will be saved as even through fire.
Can you explain how these people were saved, even though they were not very sanctified. and as far as persevering? it appears they remained babes, is that persevering?
whatever. I did not lie, and I explained how it was I did not lie. and why what you said was in fact you saying that dispensations teach that choosing God in faith is a work.
And the fact that you refuse to show me how the church you mentioned, and the tax collector chose God just shows me you have no answer.
I am done playing games, you want to make a false accusation about my faith and those like me. Expect to be called out on it and eitther prove your point, or continue to believe the lie you have been shown,