Praying for Satan. Can we? Should we?

[Runningman]

All right, so can you please give me an example where Jesus is advocating for righteous violence?
Because the message that I get from Jesus is the opposite of violence while OT is full of violence.

Hmm I guess we view Jesus entirely different from each other.

Jesus said He could call upon legions of angels to fight for Him.
Matthew 26:53
53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus accepts that His servants fight, using violence, to protect His kingdom.
John 18:36
36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Eli1]

Hmm I guess we view Jesus entirely different from each other.

Jesus said He could call upon legions of angels to fight for Him.
Matthew 26:53
53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus accepts that His servants fight, using violence, to protect His kingdom.
John 18:36
36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

‘Yes we do view it differently. Does this mean that nobody can get the “true” view from the Bible? I tend to think so.
In regards to those verses, those are only two, while Jesus constantly preached a message of love, forgiving and peace.
Also even those two verses dont seem as hostile and violent like David asking for death of his enemies. Those two verses say “I could do that, but I won’t‘’.

 

[Runningman]

‘Yes we do view it differently. Does this mean that nobody can get the “true” view from the Bible? I tend to think so.
In regards to those verses, those are only two, while Jesus constantly preached a message of love, forgiving and peace.
Also even those two verses dont seem as hostile and violent like David asking for death of his enemies. Those two verses say “I could do that, but I won’t‘’.

I see we view Jesus very differently. Now I am definitely intrigued.

I don't think Jesus taught people to forgive indiscriminately nor did He say that God forgives indiscriminately, too. Forgiveness is definitely conditional from God and other people.

If you forgive...
Matthew 6:15
15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If he repents...
Luke 17:3-4
3Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

The frequency of messages of violence is not relevant because the kind of violence Jesus could wield is far greater than that of a mere mortal man like David. David might be able to kill the body, but he can do nothing to a soul. There is a lot more talk of violence in Jesus parables. I haven't listed every example, but here's another.

Matthew 18:34-35
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[SomeDisciple]

‘Yes we do view it differently. Does this mean that nobody can get the “true” view from the Bible? I tend to think so.
In regards to those verses, those are only two, while Jesus constantly preached a message of love, forgiving and peace.
Also even those two verses dont seem as hostile and violent like David asking for death of his enemies. Those two verses say “I could do that, but I won’t‘’.

Consider that Jesus had his disciples who didn't have swords go buy swords.
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
Now look at the fact that Jesus rebukes the people that came to arrest him because they came to him "as against robbers"

Then Jesus said to the chief priests, captains of the temple, and the elders who had come to Him, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs? 53When I was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”

If these guys were not Temple officials, and were actually dangerous robbers, he probably would have let Peter slice them into pieces.

 

[CS1]

All right, so can you please give me an example where Jesus is advocating for righteous violence?
Because the message that I get from Jesus is the opposite of violence while OT is full of violence.

context od when and why matters. Jesus the King of kings came riding a donkey to the city which is an act of peace by a KIng. But when HE returns he, will be riding a horse which is an act of War by a King. Jesus was Meek: Power under control. He willfully submitted to the Cross yet he could have called 10 thousand leagues of angels which would not have been very pretty for human race.

 

[Eli1]

What you’re saying there about forgiveness is true and I agree with but this isn’t about that. It’s about Bible contradictions.
Jesus came here as a Prince of Peace riding a donkey and on his second coming he will come in Full Power Riding a Horse.
God having full power over the universe is known and implied but God so loved the world that he sent his only son for us.
‘But in David we have a man asking GOD to kill his enemies while Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies and turn our other cheek and pay cesar whatever we owe cesar. So these key messages are against violence.
‘David on the other hand seems to speak out of his own ego. He wants revenge.
‘These are contradictions to me.

 

[CS1]

What you’re saying there about forgiveness is true and I agree with but this isn’t about that. It’s about Bible contradictions.
Jesus came here as a Prince of Peace riding a donkey and on his second coming he will come in Full Power Riding a Horse.
God having full power over the universe is known and implied but God so loved the world that he sent his only son for us.
‘But in David we have a man asking GOD to kill his enemies while Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies and turn our other cheek and pay cesar whatever we owe cesar. So these key messages are against violence.
‘David on the other hand seems to speak out of his own ego. He wants revenge.
‘These are contradictions to me.

The bible has no contradictions. David also said The LORD said unto my lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

 

[Eli1]

The bible has no contradictions. David also said The LORD said unto my lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

With that verse you’re not soothing the contradiction but strengthen it, because as I’ve said, the overall message of Jesus is one of peace including your enemies.
‘Are some of you here interpreting Jesus as some Jewish people who were expecting a military leader?

 

[Magenta]

With that verse you’re not soothing the contradiction but strengthen it, because as
I’ve said, the overall message of Jesus is one of peace including your enemies.

Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have
not come to bring peace, but a sword. Jesus' words in Matthew 10:34

 

[Runningman]

What you’re saying there about forgiveness is true and I agree with but this isn’t about that. It’s about Bible contradictions.
Jesus came here as a Prince of Peace riding a donkey and on his second coming he will come in Full Power Riding a Horse.
God having full power over the universe is known and implied but God so loved the world that he sent his only son for us.
‘But in David we have a man asking GOD to kill his enemies while Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies and turn our other cheek and pay cesar whatever we owe cesar. So these key messages are against violence.
‘David on the other hand seems to speak out of his own ego. He wants revenge.
‘These are contradictions to me.

I don't really see that as a contradiction. I mean, a prayer for God to take vengeance on enemies is normal I think, though I've never done it personally that I can recall.

Romans 12:19 says "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." As long as David isn't taking revenge himself, but rather asking God to take revenge then there isn't a problem. God says vengeance is His and asking Him to take vengeance is respecting that.

It definitely comes down to intention of the heart here which God sees. There doesn't seem to be any evidence David had malicious intention, but rather to protect Israel which is something God would possibly honor.

 

[Eli1]

I don't really see that as a contradiction. I mean, a prayer for God to take vengeance on enemies is normal I think, though I've never done it personally.

Romans 12:19 says "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." As long as David isn't taking revenge himself, but rather asking God to take revenge then there isn't a problem. God says vengeance is His and asking Him to take vengeance is respecting that.

It definitely comes down to intention of the heart here which God sees. There doesn't seem to be any evidence David had malicious intention, but rather to protect Israel which is something God would possibly honor.

But it is a contradiction man because Jesus says to have mercy and pray for the enemies.

“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. ...

 

[RichMan]

WOW! When I thought I had heard everything, then I see this thread.

 

[Wonderland]

There is no forgiveness for fallen angels. Jesus clearly explained this to them before they rebelled, and prepared hell for the Devil and his angels. They chose their destiny. Case closed. No need to pray about it.

 

[Runningman]

But it is a contradiction man because Jesus says to have mercy and pray for the enemies.

“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. ...

Loving your enemies is about love in a social or moral sense. It doesn't mean allow your enemies to invade Israel and destroy everything. David had a kingdom and was willing to defend it in the same way Jesus said He would defend His kingdom. I see David and Jesus are actually in total agreement here on this specific thing about righteous violence.

 

[CS1]

With that verse you’re not soothing the contradiction but strengthen it, because as I’ve said, the overall message of Jesus is one of peace including your enemies.
‘Are some of you here interpreting Jesus as some Jewish people who were expecting a military leader?

I disagree the word of God has no contradictions. This is the proper understanding of one who approaches the word of God with proper interpretation. you assume Jesus is either or one of peace or of war, The word of God in context shows HE is both. Context matters.

 

[Eli1]

Loving your enemies is about love in a social or moral sense. It doesn't mean allow your enemies to invade Israel and destroy everything. David had a kingdom and was willing to defend it in the same way Jesus said He would defend His kingdom. I see David and Jesus are actually in total agreement here on this specific thing about righteous violence.

Ah okay. So now you don‘t want to interpret those words literally but more “poetically“. This leads us to another contradiction.
Is genesis literal or poetical? Do you believe that God literally created the Universe in 6 days?

I disagree the word of God has no contradictions. This is the proper understanding of one who approaches the word of God with proper interpretation. you assume Jesus is either or one of peace or of war, The word of God in context shows HE is both. Context matters.

Yes I also agree with you. God has no contradictions. This brings us back to another comment I made earlier in regards to how people interpret the Bible.
1. As inspired by God but written by men through the Holy Spirit or
2. Literal word of God 100% falling from the sky.

 

[Runningman]

Ah okay. So now you don‘t want to interpret those words literally but more “poetically“.

David was under the law where hating your enemies was normal. We can sorta reverse engineer, then, what loving your enemies is if we know how to properly define hating our enemies. The Bible does define the "tooth for a tooth" doctrine in Leviticus 24:17-23. "Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again."

This leads us to another contradiction.
Is genesis literal or poetical? Do you believe that God literally created the Universe in 6 days?

I believe some parts of Genesis are not literal and other parts are literal. What contradiction do you see there?

 

[Polar]

All right, so can you please give me an example where Jesus is advocating for righteous violence?
Because the message that I get from Jesus is the opposite of violence while OT is full of violence.

Pardon me for interrupting but:

The OT is without grace as we have come to know and experience it. Sacrifice was the order of the day if you were an Israelite. In the NT, Jesus is the final sacrifice for us and no more are needed. The sacrifices of the OT point to Jesus.

You don't think there is any violence in the NT? I would suggest the opposite. Think of all the babies killed when Herod discovered prophecy concerning the Messiah had possibly come true. Think of Paul's persecution of believers before he became one. Think of what life under Roman law was like, as it was for occupied Israel. There are other examples; Revelation being the main one of course.

Jesus also said '34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. Matthew 10

This world is a very violent place. Since the fall, that has pretty much been the state of things.

 

[CS1]

Ah okay. So now you don‘t want to interpret those words literally but more “poetically“. This leads us to another contradiction.
Is genesis literal or poetical? Do you believe that God literally created the Universe in 6 days?


Yes I also agree with you. God has no contradictions. This brings us back to another comment I made earlier in regards to how people interpret the Bible.
1. As inspired by God but written by men through the Holy Spirit or
2. Literal word of God 100% falling from the sky.

Verbal Plenary Inspiration: fully and completely the inspired inerrant word of God.

 

[Eli1]

David was under the law where hating your enemies was normal. We can sorta reverse engineer, then, what loving your enemies is if we know how to properly define hating our enemies. The Bible does define the "tooth for a tooth" doctrine in Leviticus 24:17-23. "Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again."

I‘M glad you mentioned The Law. Does this mean that the message of Jesus which is based on peace can contradict The Law? And yes I’m aware where he says “I didn’t come to abolish the Law”.
Also when you read David in the Bible, what is your key takeaway from it? What does it tell you?
For example, It tell me to NOT be like David. But to be more like Jesus.

I believe some parts of Genesis are not literal and other parts are literal. What contradiction do you see there?

Well I guess we agree here since you don’t interpret it all literally but the creation story is a big one. Some people interpret literal 24 hour days and I don’t.

Pardon me for interrupting but:

The OT is without grace as we have come to know and experience it. Sacrifice was the order of the day if you were an Israelite. In the NT, Jesus is the final sacrifice for us and no more are needed. The sacrifices of the OT point to Jesus.

You don't think there is any violence in the NT? I would suggest the opposite. Think of all the babies killed when Herod discovered prophecy concerning the Messiah had possibly come true. Think of Paul's persecution of believers before he became one. Think of what life under Roman law was like, as it was for occupied Israel. There are other examples; Revelation being the main one of course.

Jesus also said '34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. Matthew 10

This world is a very violent place. Since the fall, that has pretty much been the state of things.

Of course this is all true but the overall message of Jesus is that he didn’t come as a military leader and he told us to love one another and our enemies. This can contradict several other messages of the Bible, David being a prime example.

Verbal Plenary Inspiration: fully and completely the inspired inerrant word of God.

This means that we will have contradictions because if the Bible is the word of God 100% then Genesis comes into contradiction with what we see and measure in reality. Especially if you say that the Earth is 6000 years old.
Contradictions can also rise between the OT and NT especially since Jesus is leading a life of humility where he even washes his Disciple’s feet.