Election and predestination.
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Well, i am not a Calvanist.
God's election never constitutes Salvation before Faith = Ephesians 2:1-3
"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.'
God's election is True and began from "the foundation of the world". = Ephesians 1:3-6
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One."
God's election is as SURE as the Blood of Christ that Saves us. = Ephesians 1:7-12
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.
In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory."
PEACE
God's election never constitutes Salvation before Faith = Ephesians 2:1-3
"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.'
God's election is True and began from "the foundation of the world". = Ephesians 1:3-6
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One."
God's election is as SURE as the Blood of Christ that Saves us. = Ephesians 1:7-12
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.
In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory."
PEACE
Great verse. Unfortunately, most seem not to understand what Paul was talking about.
The "us" in "He chose us" is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". There is no reason to assume that "us" in v.4 is a different "us" than in v.19.
Therefore, 1:4 teaches that God has chosen or elected BELIEVERS . . . to be holy and blameless. This is an election to service.
Same as all elections.
The "us" in "He chose us" is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". There is no reason to assume that "us" in v.4 is a different "us" than in v.19.
Therefore, 1:4 teaches that God has chosen or elected BELIEVERS . . . to be holy and blameless. This is an election to service.
Same as all elections.
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you want to prove that man has no free will from the Bible? Please be my guest.
My question still stands. You didn't prove that man doesn't have free will.
Seems the problem is that you assume that unbelievers cannot make a choice.
And it seems you don't understand what free will is, anyway.
So, free will only means the freedom to choose. To make a choice between available options.
Like when the gospel is presented. The hearer has a choice: to either believe what the gospel says, or not.
Rom 10:10 - man believes from the heart. It does NOT say that man believes IF IF IF God chooses or elects for him to believe.
Free will is nothing beyond ability to make a choice.
Do you want to prove that man has no free will from the Bible? Please be my guest.
(Eph 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
(Eph 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Seems the problem is that you assume that unbelievers cannot make a choice.
And it seems you don't understand what free will is, anyway.
So, free will only means the freedom to choose. To make a choice between available options.
Like when the gospel is presented. The hearer has a choice: to either believe what the gospel says, or not.
Rom 10:10 - man believes from the heart. It does NOT say that man believes IF IF IF God chooses or elects for him to believe.
Free will is nothing beyond ability to make a choice.
Having done a thorough search through the NT, I know there aren't any verses that say this. Rather, in every verse that gives the purpose for being chosen, is about service. Every time.
Several examples follow. Although there are over 2 pages of verses that support that election is for service.
1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
I do not see any wording that teaches that God chooses who will believe. Please advise.
Ditto here. Please advise.
And ditto here. In fact, v.11-12 support the fact that election is to service.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” NASB
Red words clearly state God's purpose in election.
Blue words clearly state that purpose, which is about service. And all my examples show service as the purpose in each election example.
Several examples follow. Although there are over 2 pages of verses that support that election is for service.
1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
I do not see any wording that teaches that God chooses who will believe. Please advise.
Ditto here. Please advise.
And ditto here. In fact, v.11-12 support the fact that election is to service.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” NASB
Red words clearly state God's purpose in election.
Blue words clearly state that purpose, which is about service. And all my examples show service as the purpose in each election example.
i guess yo never read:
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."
Romans ch9
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."
Romans ch9
They are WIDE open. Please show me the WORDING.
Since I don't any posting personal, even the very snarky and rude ones, you don't have to worry about me getting all hyper-sensitive.
All I'm interested in are verses that actually SAY what people claim and believe. Because I use the Berean study method, per Act 17:11.
They "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul (or fill in your own blank) said was true.
That is my guide. I apply that principle to EVERY theology I come across; doesn't matter. The result is that I am neither Arminian or Calvinist, even though both of these theologies would put me in the other camp. They are simply not aware of free grace theology.
And I don't agree with everything someone from that theology says either. Again, I apply what is claimed against Acts 17:11 to see if the Bible says it.
So, I'm looking for any verse that plainly and clearly says that election is to salvation.
I think most people believe that just because so many have repeated it. I want to see a verse that does say that.
Since I don't any posting personal, even the very snarky and rude ones, you don't have to worry about me getting all hyper-sensitive.
All I'm interested in are verses that actually SAY what people claim and believe. Because I use the Berean study method, per Act 17:11.
They "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul (or fill in your own blank) said was true.
That is my guide. I apply that principle to EVERY theology I come across; doesn't matter. The result is that I am neither Arminian or Calvinist, even though both of these theologies would put me in the other camp. They are simply not aware of free grace theology.
And I don't agree with everything someone from that theology says either. Again, I apply what is claimed against Acts 17:11 to see if the Bible says it.
So, I'm looking for any verse that plainly and clearly says that election is to salvation.
I think most people believe that just because so many have repeated it. I want to see a verse that does say that.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Be careful there. John 6:70-71 states that Judas was chosen: as the betrayer. He was never saved.
I guess YO never bothered to address or even acknowledge John 6:70,71.
As to the above passage, there is NOTHING there that speaks of either salvation or election. Now, don't get all personal on me for saying that, but it's true.
If we examine the context for what Paul quoted from the OT, we will find out what Paul meant.
Ex 9-
15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.
In v.15, God was telling Pharoah that "by now" he could and should have been killed by God for his hard heart. (God didn't do it).
In v.16 God explained to Pharoah WHY he was still alive on the planet: "that I might show YOU my power and that My Name be proclaimed in all the earth. We know it was, because of Rahab the harlot who housed and helped the spies in Jericho.
v.17 clarifies that it was Pharoah himself who kep hardening his own heart.
So why does the Bible say that God hardened his heart? It means God kept him alive LONGER so God's purpose would be fulfilled.
What it DOESN'T mean is that God forced Pharoah's heart to harden, which is what Calvinists seem to assume.
Be careful there. John 6:70-71 states that Judas was chosen: as the betrayer. He was never saved.
I guess YO never bothered to address or even acknowledge John 6:70,71.
As to the above passage, there is NOTHING there that speaks of either salvation or election. Now, don't get all personal on me for saying that, but it's true.
If we examine the context for what Paul quoted from the OT, we will find out what Paul meant.
Ex 9-
15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.
In v.15, God was telling Pharoah that "by now" he could and should have been killed by God for his hard heart. (God didn't do it).
In v.16 God explained to Pharoah WHY he was still alive on the planet: "that I might show YOU my power and that My Name be proclaimed in all the earth. We know it was, because of Rahab the harlot who housed and helped the spies in Jericho.
v.17 clarifies that it was Pharoah himself who kep hardening his own heart.
So why does the Bible say that God hardened his heart? It means God kept him alive LONGER so God's purpose would be fulfilled.
What it DOESN'T mean is that God forced Pharoah's heart to harden, which is what Calvinists seem to assume.
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i appreciate the dialogue between us
Seems to me the Lord was in complete control of the situation at hand, even the hardening of Pharoah's heart was from the Lord.
"So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. You shall speak all that I command you.
And Aaron your brother shall tell Pharaoh to send the children of Israel out of his land.
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt."
Exo 7:1-3
Seems to me the Lord was in complete control of the situation at hand, even the hardening of Pharoah's heart was from the Lord.
"So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. You shall speak all that I command you.
And Aaron your brother shall tell Pharaoh to send the children of Israel out of his land.
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt."
Exo 7:1-3
I enjoy discussions on this forum.
As I explained, Pharoah did it to himself. That is clear from the context I shared.
Again, the words "I will harden Pharoah's heart" means that God will keep the idiot alive so he can continue to harden his own heart.
As the text shows. Why do you think God said this to Pharoah,
"15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
I guess people see what they want to see. I see God telling Pharoah that "by this time" he could have been killed by God, but instead, God has "raised you up for this VERY PURPOSE".
iow, God kept him alive for a specific purpose, and as long as Pharoah was alive, he was hardening his own heart.
Here is how the Bible describes the first 5 plagues:
Plague #1 - 7:22 - 22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Plague #2 - 8:15 -
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Plague #3 - 8:19 - the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said.
Plague #4 - 8:32 - But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
Plague #5 - 9:7 - Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.
To "not listen" and to be "unyielding" are acts of the volition, or free will.
These verses PROVE that Pharoah was hardening his own heart by his own actions. So, when the Lord told him that "by this time" he could have been killed and wiped off the earth, he was allowing Pharoah to continue to harden his own heart.
That is the sense in which "God hardened his heart".
The pattern is very clear in the first 5 plagues. Pharoah did it to himself. So why would God have to intervene to make him continue to harden his own heart?
As I explained, Pharoah did it to himself. That is clear from the context I shared.
Again, the words "I will harden Pharoah's heart" means that God will keep the idiot alive so he can continue to harden his own heart.
As the text shows. Why do you think God said this to Pharoah,
"15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
I guess people see what they want to see. I see God telling Pharoah that "by this time" he could have been killed by God, but instead, God has "raised you up for this VERY PURPOSE".
iow, God kept him alive for a specific purpose, and as long as Pharoah was alive, he was hardening his own heart.
Here is how the Bible describes the first 5 plagues:
Plague #1 - 7:22 - 22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Plague #2 - 8:15 -
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Plague #3 - 8:19 - the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said.
Plague #4 - 8:32 - But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
Plague #5 - 9:7 - Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.
To "not listen" and to be "unyielding" are acts of the volition, or free will.
These verses PROVE that Pharoah was hardening his own heart by his own actions. So, when the Lord told him that "by this time" he could have been killed and wiped off the earth, he was allowing Pharoah to continue to harden his own heart.
That is the sense in which "God hardened his heart".
The pattern is very clear in the first 5 plagues. Pharoah did it to himself. So why would God have to intervene to make him continue to harden his own heart?
It first takes faith for service, and it takes God's choosing for faith...
(Rom 8:28) And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
(Rom 8:29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
(Rom 8:30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
I suppose you can say God's purpose was for us to be conformed to the image of His Son.
(Rom 8:28) And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
(Rom 8:29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
(Rom 8:30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
I suppose you can say God's purpose was for us to be conformed to the image of His Son.
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Well I am not a follower of Pelagius if that is your point.
Besides what I had listed (Eph 1:2-4) also what is required is...
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
-God 'opening our eyes' both to our sin and His Person.
Besides what I had listed (Eph 1:2-4) also what is required is...
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
-God 'opening our eyes' both to our sin and His Person.
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Without faith, any service won't be accepted, obviously. But God does NOT "choose for faith". That is my whole point. What verse says that God chooses who will believe?
It is God's purpose for EVERY believer to be conformed to the image of His Son.
We also call that being "Christ-like".
But Rom 8:28-30 doesn't mention election or salvation. v.28 begins with saved people "those who love God".
All believers are predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.
It is God's purpose for EVERY believer to be conformed to the image of His Son.
We also call that being "Christ-like".
But Rom 8:28-30 doesn't mention election or salvation. v.28 begins with saved people "those who love God".
All believers are predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.
I don't even consider him. Once heard what he taught but can't remember what it was.
I was hoping you would have engaged my post, where I explained the definition of free will.
Of course God has always been the Initiator in His dealings with human beings. He has always taken the first step. Started in the Garden, actually. When Adam and the woman rebelled and ate the fruit, they hid, and God pursued them.
And Rom 1:19-21 proves that God has taken the first step in revealing Himself to everyone, so that "no one has any excuse" for not recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him.
All man can do for salvation is to accept the free gift that God offers. Titus 2:11
What am I missing here?
I was hoping you would have engaged my post, where I explained the definition of free will.
Of course God has always been the Initiator in His dealings with human beings. He has always taken the first step. Started in the Garden, actually. When Adam and the woman rebelled and ate the fruit, they hid, and God pursued them.
And Rom 1:19-21 proves that God has taken the first step in revealing Himself to everyone, so that "no one has any excuse" for not recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him.
All man can do for salvation is to accept the free gift that God offers. Titus 2:11
What am I missing here?
(Rom 8:29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
It means that God has predestined ALL believers "to become conformed to the image of His Son".
Or, iow, to become "Christ-like".
It means that God has predestined ALL believers "to become conformed to the image of His Son".
Or, iow, to become "Christ-like".
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