Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[Magenta]

Jesus' words from John 7:37-38 and John 4:14

 

[BeeThePeace]

Woman's menstrual rag

Interestingly, humans are born into this world by water and blood.
I don't think menstrual rags are the filth some may imagine. Because that birth is by God's design. And Mary bled before begetting holy Emmanuel, being highly favored by God.

Water baptism is necessary for the resurrection is written in plain English in Romans 6:5 and Paul teaches the same idea in 1 Corinthians 15, it’s also mentioned in 1 Peter 3:21. Just read my OP again it’s a bit more thorough as to why.

I know you don’t see that, but I see it and there are others who see it. From what I can see about your stated stances on scripture, you’re incapable of seeing it because your foundation about resurrections and water baptism isn’t accurate. In Christianity we can easily get blinded by our firmly held and sincere beliefs, but I don’t really have a preference what the Bible says or doesn’t say, I just seek the truth and have no loyalty to any doctrines.

Don’t take me saying you are incorrect as disrespectful or rude, because that’s just my opinion and I need to demonstrate I disagree with you in order to explain why my position is correct... which I have done repeatedly. None of this is personal to me.

The point that seemed to flare tensions between you and me was when you said “Jesus is the resurrection and the life and you are resurrected through faith.” However i rebuttalled with a counter argument that showed that passage didn’t actually guarantee a resurrection to the woman at the well for believing, but it promised her eternal life.

At minimum, I believe I effectively demonstrated your interpretation is not necessarily accurate but even possibly wrong.

I believe salvation of the soul is through faith and salvation of the body is through water baptism.

Actually, the New Testament was written in plain common, Koine, Greek.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Not so that Jesus can go to heaven, but to signify that the Blood Covenant was fulfilled in His Death.

If by "blood covenant" you mean the Old covenant- yes. His perfect life and his death fulfilled the old covenant because he did the things that were in it. That's what opened the way into the most holy place, in order to present himself to the father and anoint the holy things in heaven with his blood- the blood of the new covenant.

I think I just figured out why the Jews don't understand why Jesus was a legitimate sacrifice... his obedience to the death was the living sacrifice that fulfilled the OT; his murder on the cross was not a literal human sacrifice to try and fulfill the OT. His blood is the blood of the new covenant. Epiphany!

 

[DavidTree]

If by "blood covenant" you mean the Old covenant- yes. His perfect life and his death fulfilled the old covenant because he did the things that were in it. That's what opened the way into the most holy place, in order to present himself to the father and anoint the holy things in heaven with his blood- the blood of the new covenant.

I think I just figured out why the Jews don't understand why Jesus was a legitimate sacrifice... his obedience to the death was the living sacrifice that fulfilled the OT; his murder on the cross was not a literal human sacrifice to try and fulfill the OT. His blood is the blood of the new covenant. Epiphany!

His Death on the Cross was to fulfill the Prophecy of God spoken to satan, Adam & Eve in the Garden and all that followed.
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world = Rev 13:8

His Blood shed on the Cross is the NEW TESTAMENT(COVENANT).

And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying,
“This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you."
Luke 22:19-20

 

[Runningman]

Actually, the New Testament was written in plain common, Koine, Greek.

I am by no means an expert in Koine Greek but I do try to understand it as much as possible when I am studying the NT. Do you happen to be really good at Koine Greek, like enough to read, write, or speak fluently?

If not that's totally okay, it would be a rarity to find an actual Koine Greek expert here.

 

[JAPOV]

I'm confused...
If water baptism is necessary, then certainly Jesus would have made that point clear; He would not have left us with such a deadly argument.
So my question is, where and when did the Hebrew tradition of water baptism originate?
Did it eventually evolve into "Law" like everything else?
Did the baptism of Jesus simply fulfill prophecy and the "law"?

 

[Beckie]

The thief NEVER died under OT - this is so WRONG to even say such a thing.

The theif on the cross next to the NEW TESTAMENT confessed to the NEW TESTAMENT and the NEW TESTAMENT said:

Well, I think it is fair enough to say that he died while the OT was still in effect; Hebrews 9 suggests that the NT didn't take effect at least until Jesus ascended to heaven.

"this day you will be with ME...."

The temple or Judaism was in operation until the end of 'this` generation or about 70 ad

 

[BeeThePeace]

I am by no means an expert in Koine Greek but I do try to understand it as much as possible when I am studying the NT. Do you happen to be really good at Koine Greek, like enough to read, write, or speak fluently?

If not that's totally okay, it would be a rarity to find an actual Koine Greek expert here.

It would be rare. I'm not an expert in Koine, no.

There are interlinear Koine("Common") Greek English Bibles online.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/

 

[DavidTree]

The temple or Judaism was in operation until the end of 'this` generation or about 70 ad

the LORD gave them approx 40 years to repent, but they refused. The Temple was destroyed and they were kicked out of the Land.
Everything, in time, goes according to His Will.

 

[DavidTree]

I'm confused...
If water baptism is necessary, then certainly Jesus would have made that point clear; He would not have left us with such a deadly argument.
So my question is, where and when did the Hebrew tradition of water baptism originate?
Did it eventually evolve into "Law" like everything else?
Did the baptism of Jesus simply fulfill prophecy and the "law"?

Water baptism is to fulfill Prophecy, as a Witness to the nation Israel as a Witness to us who believe of our New Identity.

Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.
Matthew 16:1-4

 

[BeeThePeace]

I'm confused...
If water baptism is necessary, then certainly Jesus would have made that point clear; He would not have left us with such a deadly argument.
So my question is, where and when did the Hebrew tradition of water baptism originate?
Did it eventually evolve into "Law" like everything else?
Did the baptism of Jesus simply fulfill prophecy and the "law"?

It is said of Baptism, it is an outward sign of an inner grace.

Baptism is reminiscient of the Mikvah, the Jewish ritual cleansing bath.
As we are born of water and blood the first time, when we accept Christ as savior we are reborn in him. Born again.

The rite of Baptism is symbolic in that we are submerged beneath the water, remember Jesus is living water, and arise cleansed as a new being. Having been reborn when submerged as sinner, washed clean and arise a saint in Christ.

Free of the sins God will never again recall. This isnt what saves us. This is what symbolically regenerates our being formerly dead in our worldly sins.
Then reborn of living water as a new creation in Christ.

Jesus is living water. Jesus saves. We are saved by grace through faith.
The doctrine that claims we are not saved if not baptized puts conditions on what God ordained by his leading whom he will to his son.

God's free irrevocable gift of faith and salvation is not conditioned on emersion in water when Jesus is the living water that saves eternally. NOT conditionally.

Any doctrine that insists you are not saved unless you are baptized is literally a damned lie.

There are over a billion Catholics on earth. Sprinkle baptized as babies, or later converts. Are they all unknown to God?

Did God never know or call a one of them to his son?

Are they all damned for lack of emersion baptism? Do we know? Or does God know his own before the foundation of this world?

 

[Runningman]

Water baptism is to fulfill Prophecy, as a Witness to the nation Israel as a Witness to us who believe of our New Identity.

Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.
Matthew 16:1-4

Let me word it like this. Here’s my take on the sign of Jonah. The sign of Jonah was the literal burial of Jesus in the Earth for three days. It wasn’t about water baptism.

 

[Runningman]

I'm confused...
If water baptism is necessary, then certainly Jesus would have made that point clear; He would not have left us with such a deadly argument.
So my question is, where and when did the Hebrew tradition of water baptism originate?
Did it eventually evolve into "Law" like everything else?
Did the baptism of Jesus simply fulfill prophecy and the "law"?

Jesus spoke in parables and figurative language most of the time, occasionally taking the time to clearly explain plainly to His 12 disciples. The main objectives of the gospels wasn’t to plainly explain everything Jesus said, leaving a great deal of the Bible completely wide open to interpretation.

Occasionally Jesus did plainly mention water baptism and He commanded all of His followers to be baptized into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you believe Paul then Paul expanded greatly on what the apparent purpose of water baptism is for gentiles. Of course, Paul’s letters produce deadly debates too.

 

[JAPOV]

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againb he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youd must be born again.’ 8The winde blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Hmmmmm... How can we be certain that Jesus was talking about the "water of the womb" here? Is it simply a matter of context and translation?

 

[SomeDisciple]

The temple or Judaism was in operation until the end of 'this` generation or about 70 ad

Herod's Temple became obsolete long before 70AD. Rabbinical Judaism is still in operation today; it also became obsolete- the moment the new covenant began. "this" generation, this untoward generation, this brood of vipers, the seed of the devil- that's still around today.

 

[Wansvic]

This again omits context and other scriptures that prove upon entering into the gift of God's faith and Salvation we receive, are sealed, with the holy spirit. That is God and his promise.

A false gospel is not the gospel of Christ. You're wrong. Yet will not face that.
God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven .

God's word never contradicts itself. Paul's question, along with confirming scripture such as the Acts 8 account. And Jesus' own statement that God will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask sheds light on the topic.

 

[DavidTree]

Let me word it like this. Here’s my take on the sign of Jonah. The sign of Jonah was the literal burial of Jesus in the Earth for three days. It wasn’t about water baptism.

Yes, the sign of Jonah was the literal Death, Burial, Resurrection of the LORD.
Water baptism is the symbolic sign of the same upon us who believe.
"If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?" 1 Cor 15:29

"the Volume of the Book is written of ME(Jesus)"

Water baptism is exactly what the LORD said it was for = "to fulfill all righteousness"
Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.

CHRIST came to fulfill all Righteousness = the Glorious foreshadows of HIM in the OT.

 

[DavidTree]

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againb he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youd must be born again.’ 8The winde blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Hmmmmm... How can we be certain that Jesus was talking about the "water of the womb" here? Is it simply a matter of context and translation?

YES - 100% certain HE was speaking of the water from the womb as HE clearly denotes that by separating "flesh from spirit".

 

[DavidTree]

Herod's Temple became obsolete long before 70AD. Rabbinical Judaism is still in operation today; it also became obsolete- the moment the new covenant began. "this" generation, this untoward generation, this brood of vipers, the seed of the devil- that's still around today.

The Temple was not yet obsolete because it had to be in Jerusalem, fully functioning for the Coming of the LORD.
Thus fulfilling Prophecy.
AND
What the FATHER was waiting for = the Veil being torn from top to bottom.

 

[Wansvic]

The NT was in effect(began) the moment the LORD began His Ministry, when the Holy Spirit Rested and Remained on Him.

The NT was fulfilled (for forgiveness of sins) when HE Finished the Work of God and shed His Blood on the Cross.

The NT was completed when HE ascended to the Right Hand of the Father so that the Promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit be poured out upon His People = Blood Washed Saints Born of the Spirit.

The thief was saved by Faith(Gospel) in the Sacrifice of Messiah(Gospel).

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’?
But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

As indicated from scripture the NT was begun after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection:

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." Heb 9:14-15