You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

[FreeGrace2]

Luke 11-
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

I notice you skipped (omitted) the part where he explained the principle of persistence (rather than thinking everything comes immediately / instantly / without intense and/or sustained effort):

When the Bible commands the believer to be filled with the Spirit, do you think that Luke 11:13 doesn't apply???

Do you think God's response to such a prayer would be: I'll get back to you sometime?

 

[KelbyofGod]

Luke 11-
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

When the Bible commands the believer to be filled with the Spirit, do you think that Luke 11:13 doesn't apply???

Do you think God's response to such a prayer would be: I'll get back to you sometime?

As much as one might reason that God would move IMMEDIATELY with the manifestation of filling someone with the Holy Ghost, we both know that is not how it happened in the book of Acts. That's why you advised against trusting the early church experiences.

You are now suggesting that the doctrine of immediate filling was active while Jesus was still walking the Earth. If your proposed doctrine was correct, Acts 8:12-16 could not have happened. It would be impossible for there to be a delay. That's why the doctrine of immediate infilling is false.

Nonetheless I'm thankful that you are willing to talk with me about it.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[FreeGrace2]

As much as one might reason that God would move IMMEDIATELY with the manifestation of filling someone with the Holy Ghost, we both know that is not how it happened in the book of Acts.

I was addressing the command to be FILLED with the Spirit, not being INDWELT with the Spirit.

Those are 2 separate things.

You are now suggesting that the doctrine of immediate filling was active while Jesus was still walking the Earth.

No, I am not. In fact, While Jesus was on earth, the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit was given to only a very few people; those who had specific ministries, like prophets, some kings, etc.

The INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit was given to all believers after Christ's resurrection.

If your proposed doctrine was correct, Acts 8:12-16 could not have happened. It would be impossible for there to be a delay. That's why the doctrine of immediate infilling is false.

You are confused between the FILLING and INDWELLING.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I was addressing the command to be FILLED with the Spirit, not being INDWELT with the Spirit.

Those are 2 separate things.


No, I am not. In fact, While Jesus was on earth, the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit was given to only a very few people; those who had specific ministries, like prophets, some kings, etc.

The INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit was given to all believers after Christ's resurrection.


You are confused between the FILLING and INDWELLING.

So change it to "the doctrine of indwelling" (instead of "infilling"). The problem still remains.

In Acts 8:15&16 they had not "received" the Holy Ghost.

That means they were neither infilled nor indwelt. Until verse 17.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Oops. That should have said:

So change it to "the doctrine of instant indwelling" (instead of "infilling"). The problem still remains.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Lafftur]

Hello Kelby,

When Jesus Christ was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit also appeared in bodily form as a dove…. Jesus Christ was being Water Baptized and Holy Spirit Baptized- empowered to go directly into the wilderness and be tempted by Satan and overcome!

I believe being SAVED is only by the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ; however, being Born Again is by Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism.

 

[Magenta]

Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something
to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made
in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled
Himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross.

 

[Magenta]

Colossians2-13-14

 

[FreeGrace2]

So change it to "the doctrine of indwelling" (instead of "infilling"). The problem still remains.

The problem only remains if one uses the UNbiblical word "infilling". The Holy Spirit DWELLS IN the believer. Or, He indwells the believer.

So, it appears you don't see any difference between being "filled" vs being indwell then. Well, that's sad.

If they are the same, why did Paul COMMAND believers to be filled then? The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit INDWELLS the believer "when they believe", per Eph 1;13,14.

So, the problem rests solely on your understanding.

In Acts 8:15&16 they had not "received" the Holy Ghost.

Let's not get mired down in very early church history. By the time Paul to the Galatians, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurred when a person believed. Gal 3:2,5.

That means they were neither infilled nor indwelt. Until verse 17.

You are very confused.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Hello Kelby,

When Jesus Christ was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit also appeared in bodily form as a dove…. Jesus Christ was being Water Baptized and Holy Spirit Baptized- empowered to go directly into the wilderness and be tempted by Satan and overcome!

I believe being SAVED is only by the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ; however, being Born Again is by Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism.

I was thinking about you and was going to message to see if you were ok. (Hadn't heard from you in a while). Glad to see you're still smiling around.

It was an answered prayer to have you comment when you did. I'd logged in to check things during a break 20 minutes after you posted and it was such a relief because I was praying about/for you earlier in the day. I knew it wasn't a coincidence but I've struggled since to find the wording to express why it was important to me. Best I can do is say I was feeling like I had matter-of-facted too many people away and was thinking of your demeanor and was thinking I could/should be a little more personable in my approach. I'm not completely sure that is the only reason you were on my mind while praying because I was praying in the spirit at the time, and only "He that searcheth the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit" while he "maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Rom 8:26-27)

In terms of "Saved"... Quite honestly, I almost never use the word "Saved" when discussing salvational issues because there are much clearer descriptions to use. Like Paul's question of "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" in Acts 19:2.

Most people I've met have been taught that it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe and yet not have received the Holy Ghost. Which is part of what the current discussion is about (towards the end of the thread). Yet we see separations between "belief", "baptism in Jesus' name", and "receiving the Holy Ghost" in the accounts recorded in Acts.

The modern emphasis on calling people "saved" (with a capital "S") basically disallows those distinctions made in the bible.

It goes back to the basics of believing... When there is a disagreement between what is taught and what is written, which should a person throw out? I throw out the doctrine that doesn't fit the biblical examples, not the biblical examples that don't fit the doctrine. Yet I know that is a hard pill for most to swallow.

Not sure how to end this particular post. But thank you for being an answered prayer.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Deuteronomy 30:6

@Magenta ,
Thanks for your postings as well. I may have to ask more about the most recent ones, as to what you may have been answering with each, but I really appreciate your posting of Deuteronomy 30:6 regarding circumcision of the heart.

I have some understanding what circumcision of the heart means, and I appreciate some of the value. Specifically in comparison to what is going on with fleshly circumcision as God started to opening that purpose to me.

Verse 6 when read alone sounds like circumcision of the heart is a prerequisite for loving him with all the heart, etc.; Yet not specifically a prerequisite of belief. And my apologies if I seem overly critical about that wording. It's just that God has shown me to pay very close attention to wording.

When I read the verses leading up to Deut 30:6, it seems like the chapter starts with the people being in a state of being turned back (or away) from the Lord. And in verse 2 they start doing the thing that puts the repair process in motion. Which, according to verse 3, reverses God's wrath. Then verses 4, 5 & 6 seem like a detailing of the types of benefits they would be receiving from the actions of verse 2... circumcision of the heart being one of those benefits.

Is that along the lines of how you read it?

or a different question... "What do you think 'circumcision of the heart' means? I'd be willing to share what God's shown me so far if you want to know/ask.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

The problem only remains if one uses the UNbiblical word "infilling". The Holy Spirit DWELLS IN the believer. Or, He indwells the believer.

So, it appears you don't see any difference between being "filled" vs being indwell then. Well, that's sad.

If they are the same, why did Paul COMMAND believers to be filled then? The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit INDWELLS the believer "when they believe", per Eph 1;13,14.

So, the problem rests solely on your understanding.


Let's not get mired down in very early church history. By the time Paul to the Galatians, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurred when a person believed. Gal 3:2,5.


You are very confused.

I know there's a difference between indwelling and infilling or rather "being filled with" vs. "having received" the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost, but didn't go into the differences because it was unnecessary to the point of discussion. I'd wrongly assumed you thought they were more or less the same like most others seem to do, and I chose a wording that was imprecise. My request was that you would adjust back to the wording you best prefer that refers to the moment when a person first receives the Holy Ghost.

It seems you were suggesting that before Jesus even went to the cross, he was offering the Holy Ghost INSTANTANEOUSLY to anyone who asked.

I was pointing out that effectively you were wrong in your interpretation of what he was saying. Otherwise the apostles would not have needed to wait for the Holy Ghost until the day of Pentecost if Jesus meant "any request for the Holy Ghost would be instantaneously granted". The fact that Acts 8:12-17 happened... early church or not... means that your interpretation cannot be the correct interpretation.

But again I thank you for being willing to discuss with me.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

But again I thank you for being willing to discuss with me.

@FreeGrace2
My apologies that the above quote sounded more like a dismissal rather than a welcoming of continued conversation.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[FreeGrace2]

I know there's a difference between indwelling and infilling or rather "being filled with" vs. "having received" the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost,

To "receive the Holy Spirit" is the same thing as being indwelt by or with the Holy Spirit. To be "filled" means to be under the influence of. Just as Paul stated in Eph 5:18. Instead of being under the influence of alcohol, be filled with the Spirit.

but didn't go into the differences because it was unnecessary to the point of discussion.

It is always important, because so many people don't know the difference, and even use very confusing and non-biblical words, like "fin-filling". Which has no meaning.

I'd wrongly assumed you thought they were more or less the same like most others seem to do, and I chose a wording that was imprecise.

Correct.

My request was that you would adjust back to the wording you best prefer that refers to the moment when a person first receives the Holy Ghost.

That would be "receiving the Holy Spirit" or "being indwelt" with the Spirit. We must be precise, not imprecise.

It seems you were suggesting that before Jesus even went to the cross, he was offering the Holy Ghost INSTANTANEOUSLY to anyone who asked.

Not just "anyone". The context is very clear; to His disciples. The ones who asked Him to teach them how to pray.

I was pointing out that effectively you were wrong in your interpretation of what he was saying. Otherwise the apostles would not have needed to wait for the Holy Ghost until the day of Pentecost if Jesus meant "any request for the Holy Ghost would be instantaneously granted".

You have wrongly missed my point. Jesus HAD TO GIVE the Spirit to them PRECISELY because they NEVER asked for Him.

The fact that Acts 8:12-17 happened... early church or not... means that your interpretation cannot be the correct interpretation.

Doesn't at all. There were clearly differences in the very early church and we have no business to apply the variations of the very early church to now. Big mistake.

 

[FreeGrace2]

KelbyofGod said:
But again I thank you for being willing to discuss with me.

@FreeGrace2
My apologies that the above quote sounded more like a dismissal rather than a welcoming of continued conversation.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Why would you think that?? I'm always willing, as all my posts demonstrate.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Not just "anyone". The context is very clear; to His disciples. The ones who asked Him to teach them how to pray.

I'll think on that. I don't think it's far from how I actually see it now.

Ehhh... I was going to say that I had assumed the offer to ask extends to anyone because the offer to be his disciple extends to anyone. (Therefore a person could very quickly don discipleship and pass right on to asking him for the Holy Ghost. )

Then I thought:... If you particularly need to ask him how to pray before being accounted a disciple, the woman at the well in John 4 seems to break that mold because he was offering it to her before she had either asked him how to pray or had been declared his disciple. But then again, I don't know of any woman specifically being listed as a disciple (perhaps I'm overlooking a reference). And if I was correct that women weren't listed as "disciples' then that would create an opportunity for you to say the woman at the well was under different rules, specifically because she's a woman. That would seemingly open up a whole new level of potential strife and confusion (IMHO).

You have wrongly missed my point. Jesus HAD TO GIVE the Spirit to them PRECISELY because they NEVER asked for Him.

That's an interesting viewpoint, and one I'd not heard before. I'll probably think on that one for a while. One implication is that it kind of eliminates a requirement to ask...(if you felt there was a requirement to ask).

There were clearly differences in the very early church

Different from what? And what differences, specifically?

We have no business to apply the variations of the very early church to now. Big mistake.

What do you mean by "apply the variations"?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'll think on that. I don't think it's far from how I actually see it now.

Ehhh... I was going to say that I had assumed the offer to ask extends to anyone because the offer to be his disciple extends to anyone. (Therefore a person could very quickly don discipleship and pass right on to asking him for the Holy Ghost. )

No one could "very quickly don discipleship". I was speaking of the 12 He chose to be His disciples. No one else at that time.

Then I thought:... If you particularly need to ask him how to pray before being accounted a disciple, the woman at the well in John 4 seems to break that mold because he was offering it to her before she had either asked him how to pray or had been declared his disciple.

I don't see where He taught her about prayer. He was offering her eternal life, which she accepted.

But then again, I don't know of any woman specifically being listed as a disciple (perhaps I'm overlooking a reference).

Nope. They were all males.

That's an interesting viewpoint, and one I'd not heard before. I'll probably think on that one for a while. One implication is that it kind of eliminates a requirement to ask...(if you felt there was a requirement to ask).

In the OT, only a few believers received the Holy Spirit, and each time was for a specific work, such as king, prophet, skilled craftsmen who worked on the ark of the covenant, etc.

Only in the NT is every believer given the indwelling Holy Spirit. But Jesus was specifically offering it to His own disciples.

Different from what? And what differences, specifically?

What do you mean by "apply the variations"?

There were differences in the order of receiving the Holy Spirit and water baptism, for example.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree with all of the scriptures, even the scriptures that describe different types of baptisms, bringing the total number of baptisms to more than one. Maybe there are at least 4 different baptisms I can think of immediately. What is the "one baptism" that Ephesians 4:5,6 is talking about?

“And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:8

to impute sin there needs to be two or three witnesses agreeing, to remit sin there are also three witnesses in agreement with one baptism

the water witnesses of remission of sins

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it agrees with the blood of remission

“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the third witness is the spirit Or word of Jesus Christ that tells us we’re forgiven

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the spirit water and blood are the one baptism like three witnesses agreeing that our sins are remitted one baptism is our instruction we baptize with water , Jesus baptized believers with the Holy Spirit. Here’s a good example of how they are one

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41‬ ‭KJV‬‬


when it says there’s one baptism it’s saying there’s one baptism we’ve been instructed to partake of ( water ) we do this because we’ve heard the word and heard about Jesus shedding his blood for remission .

the church has only one baptism water Jesus is who baptized with the spirit from heaven and we only know these things because it’s in the gospel

there is one baptism it’s johns baptism of remission of sins , because we believe the blood was shed for remission of sins and have believed the word telling us about remission of sins the three witnesses agree in one about remission of sins

much like God is one but we hear about three different manifestations of him baptism is one and we hear about different aspects of it. Water , blood and spirit agree on one baptism

we hear the gospel , believe and then get baptized based on our new belief that’s salvation by faith

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

Baptisms value is that God said get baptized for remission of sins believing Jesus does for your sins and I will remit your sins when we hear that and act upon our belief it is faith.

 

[Magenta]

@Magenta ,
Thanks for your postings as well. I may have to ask more about the most recent ones, as to what you may have been answering with each, but I really appreciate your posting of Deuteronomy 30:6 regarding circumcision of the heart.

I have some understanding what circumcision of the heart means, and I appreciate some of the value. Specifically in comparison to what is going on with fleshly circumcision as God started to opening that purpose to me.

Verse 6 when read alone sounds like circumcision of the heart is a prerequisite for loving him with all the heart, etc.; Yet not specifically a prerequisite of belief. And my apologies if I seem overly critical about that wording. It's just that God has shown me to pay very close attention to wording.

When I read the verses leading up to Deut 30:6, it seems like the chapter starts with the people being in a state of being turned back (or away) from the Lord. And in verse 2 they start doing the thing that puts the repair process in motion. Which, according to verse 3, reverses God's wrath. Then verses 4, 5 & 6 seem like a detailing of the types of benefits they would be receiving from the actions of verse 2... circumcision of the heart being one of those benefits.

Is that along the lines of how you read it?

or a different question... "What do you think 'circumcision of the heart' means? I'd be willing to share what God's shown me so far if you want to know/ask.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Good morning, Kelby I just read your previous post to Lafftur as well, and appreciate what you have to say about your approach, because mine is likewise also often very matter-of-fact and succinct, and I have at times wondered if something else, something more, would be better. I look at a verse like Romans 12:10, and even now wonder, does outdoing ourselves in honoring others mean we are to try to push beyond our own limitations, or are we to attempt being better than others. Ha. Anyway, in answer to your question: since the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God, heart circumcision is required. While perhaps not specifically stated that it is a prerequisite for belief, I do not see how it is possible otherwise. It may be that some have more to cut away than others, but Scripture is very clear: For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit, life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8:6-7) The heart of the natural man is replaced (also articulated in Scripture), and we are given new desires which in essence amount to us being able to grow more aligned with God's will for our lives. That is my understanding.

I will add here that thinking about my approach, and that of others, is an interesting "study." I feel I was honed this way. No doubt others have been shaped in how they respond, also. I began speaking as a Christian online to others very early in my Christian walk, and my interactions for the first eight years of that were almost exclusively with non-believers. I found keeping my answers short and to the point best, because otherwise, things could go sideways very fast. Generally speaking, the non-believer was very determined to go off point often and get things going sideways as much as possible. LOL. I do find being succinct when discussing Scripture works best for me. Some people appreciate it, and perhaps others do not. However, even then, in my clearly stating A is A, someone may ask, are you saying A is B, and B equals C, and therefore D? I don't know how they can come to such conclusions, but what can ya do?

 

[Runningman]

“And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:8

to impute sin there needs to be two or three witnesses agreeing, to remit sin there are also three witnesses in agreement with one baptism

the water witnesses of remission of sins

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it agrees with the blood of remission

“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the third witness is the spirit Or word of Jesus Christ that tells us we’re forgiven

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the spirit water and blood are the one baptism like three witnesses agreeing that our sins are remitted one baptism is our instruction we baptize with water , Jesus baptized believers with the Holy Spirit. Here’s a good example of how they are one

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41‬ ‭KJV‬‬


when it says there’s one baptism it’s saying there’s one baptism we’ve been instructed to partake of ( water ) we do this because we’ve heard the word and heard about Jesus shedding his blood for remission .

the church has only one baptism water Jesus is who baptized with the spirit from heaven and we only know these things because it’s in the gospel

there is one baptism it’s johns baptism of remission of sins , because we believe the blood was shed for remission of sins and have believed the word telling us about remission of sins the three witnesses agree in one about remission of sins

much like God is one but we hear about three different manifestations of him baptism is one and we hear about different aspects of it. Water , blood and spirit agree on one baptism

we hear the gospel , believe and then get baptized based on our new belief that’s salvation by faith

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

Baptisms value is that God said get baptized for remission of sins believing Jesus does for your sins and I will remit your sins when we hear that and act upon our belief it is faith.

Yes but, to add to that, the baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus" is superior to all other baptisms. I think the baptism of Jesus is the one we need to obey.

Acts 19:1-7
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.