What does "the coming of the Lord" in the NT refer to?

kenallen · May 7, 2022

Lets see just what God had to say about this. I prefer the King James Authorized Version
Ezekiel 13:20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. 21Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 22Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: 23Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

DO NOT TEACH MY PEOPLE TO FLY TO SVE THEIR SOULS
We could do this whole bible study if you want.

Nehemiah6 · May 7, 2022

DavidTree said:

No I did not, and actually presented what Paul had revealed. As to reading the Scriptures, I was probably doing that while you were still in diapers.

TheDivineWatermark · May 8, 2022

kenallen said:

Did that study... and found that the passage is not stating what the "anti-rapture[/snatch]-in-the-air" folks suggest that this passage is conveying:

Post #3507 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4578261

TheDivineWatermark · May 8, 2022

kenallen said:

Consider what I'd put in an old post:

[quoting]

"[Paul is basically saying, those who've "fallen asleep through Jesus" will not miss out on the "bring WITH [G4862-UNITED-with] Jesus/Him" part, see]"

[end quoting old post]

Paul is not answering a question as to where their deceased loved ones [believers] are presently.

He's addressing the question as to "how" it will be the case that they will ALSO come "WITH [UNITED-with] Him" since they are DEAD / since they've DIED beforehand.

Paul tells "how" it will indeed be the case:

The entire "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be "snatched up" in ONE snatch-action [once "the DEAD IN Christ" shall rise / be resurrected ('to stand again') first], "and SO [/in this manner] shall WE ever be WITH [UNIONed-with] the Lord." (i.e. NONE of the "ONE BODY" will be left out just because they've DIED prior to that time when God shall bring "UNIONed-with Him"... IOW, they [the DEAD in Christ] will ALSO participate!)

This text is not saying, as many suggest, that God will bring their SPIRITS with Him when He comes to then bodily resurrect them at the time of "our Rapture". NO. Not the point of this text. = ) Don't feel bad though... a great many people think this passage is saying such, and that Paul is comforting the believers as to where those saints who've died ARE, PRESENTLY. He's not.
This is not the point Paul is conveying here.

FreeGrace2 · May 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
This passage is probably the most used to teach about a pretribulational rapture.

1 These 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In this passage we have 3 mentions of Jesus "coming back" to earth.

kenallen said:

From your "lets understand", I thought you were correcting something I explained about the passage. The issue is about what the "coming of the Lord" means. It means the Second Advent, which occurs at the END of the Tribulation. But you didn't address that.

kenallen · May 8, 2022

I must have posted that under the wrong persons post sorry

kenallen · May 8, 2022

jb said:

What do you mean complete Twaddle! If you disagree instead of harassment go to scripture and make your point.
2nd Thessalians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
What does Paul say in verses 1&2. Listen up you did not quite understand what I was saying in my first letter. Do not get all shook up Jesus is not coming until the great apostasy. That is when people willing listen to false teaching that is contrary to Gods word, the teaching of Jesus Christ and the apostles. We lie in that time today. Paul goes on to say "Be not shaken in mind . . . nor by letter as from us that the Day of the Lord is at hand." You did not understand what I meant by comforting one another with these word. What has to happen? 1. There is a falling away that must happen and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition(Strong's Greek 684: Destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin. From a presumed derivative of apollumi; ruin or loss.) This is non other than The Antichrist. What must he do before Jesus returns? He must set in the temple of God calming to be God. NO!! rapture on one flying away any real christian would not want to leave. They would want to stay and do what is clearly stated as the job of Gods people 12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls. I would hope that as a Christ man "Christian" you would want to do Gods work at this time. Why would you want to turn tail and run.
PUT THAT IN YOUR TWADDLE. I do not know you and I am only responding to your words. I am not making a judgment of you.

kenallen · May 8, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

JPT Who are the dead in Christ? I am sure you are not talking about those christens who have gone on to be with the Lord.
Ecclesiastes 12:6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. For there spirit is already returned to God and they have their new body. 1 Corinthains 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

presidente · May 9, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. it is obvious Christ rose from the dead before the resurrection at the end of the age. It's hard to understand with all the caps and underlines and hinder fluid reading.

That is an interesting point you make, but what about the living creatures who also sing it? Do you believe that some Christians will be resurrected as some sort of being reminiscent of cherubim, resembling an ox, eagle, lion, and human with eyes and wings? Were the living creatures redeemed? Could the living creatures and elders have been singing a song for the church?

Also, when John wrote this, the elders of the church hadn't been resurrected, either, so does your interpretation using this as evidence for the elders already having been resurrected rest on a kind of spiritual time travel?

Joseph had a dream about sheaves, which represented his family, bowing down to him. In order for him to have this dream, did the other family members have to be conscious and aware to be in his dream? He dreamed about them, but that doesn't mean he was interacting with them as conscious entities. Why would there have to be some elders or living creatures in heaven that remembered John's revelation for him to have it? There is symbolism in dreams. If John speaks with elders in a dream, that doesn't tell us when elders will be resurrected.

It is not worth throwing away the straight forward eschatology of Paul which tells us of the dead being made alive at Jesus' coming, of the rapture and resurrection occurring at the coming of the Lord, about the man of sin being destroyed with the brightness of His coming, etc. to try to make all this other stuff fit into the pre-trib scenario.

Why do pre-tribbers go to the most allegorical passages that can be interpreted many different ways first, argue for pre-trib over that and use that as a basis for their eschatology?

The Subject matter being covered in Matthew 24 is NOT "our Rapture [in the air]"... Everything in Matt24:4 and following is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture".

"Rapture [in the air]" is not what Jesus is speaking about in His Olivet Discourse (ANYWHERE in it), but rather His Second Coming to the earth and the specific, future, LIMITED time-period that precedes and leads up to that (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age which commences upon His "RETURN" there [/to the earth] Rev19; see also Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and its parallel in His Olivet Discourse Matt24], where Lk12 states, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]).[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2022

presidente said:

The reason is because they have no verses that clearly show a pretrib resurrection with a trip to heaven.

And they are forced to split the singular resurrection of all believers into "stages", which cannot be proven from Scripture.

presidente · May 9, 2022

kenallen said:

Continue reading in the same passage.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (NKJV)

Notice that last phrase 'at His coming'/at His parousia. The man of sin is made alive at Jesus' coming, right? Do you disagree with that interpretation?

What else happens at Christ's coming, at his parousia?

I Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Those who are Christ's are resurrected at His coming. It does not say they are resurrected 7 years before His coming.

Look what else happens at Jesus' coming according to I Thessalonians 4.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Doesn't this passage indicate that the rapture/resurrection passage happens at the coming of the Lord?

Now think about that II Thessalonians passage. If the man of sin is going to be destroyed at Jesus' coming, and the church isn't raptured until Jesus' coming, then why do pretribbers say the man of sin is revealed AFTER the rapture? The man of sin is revelaed at Jesus' coming.... and the rapture occurs at Jesus' coming. The pre-trib time line makes no sense at all.

Also, many pre-tribbers make a big theological point of the idea that the church isn't here at the second coming of Christ. But read II Thessalonians 1. The church is here at the return of Christ!

II Thessalonians 1
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Notice pre-tribbers think the church is raptured, then people think there is 'peace and safety' under the man of sin for a while. Then seven years back, Jesus comes back executing judgment. But notice here, the church is present when Jesus comes back executing judgment on them that believe not, whenHe comes giving the church rest, being admired in them that believe.

And where exactly is there one whit of evidence for Jesus coming back multiple times? Is there any hint of it in Paul's writings? In Revelation? I don't see a rapture in the early pages of the book of Revelation. When I was young and read through Revelation, I was expecting to find some evidence of pre-trib rapture there, or somewhere in the Bible, after having it preached so much.

And look at 'that' day' in II Thessalonians 1:10. Considering that the verse you quoted about the the day of Christ in 2:2, just a few verses away. Is there any reason to think that the 'day of Christ' does not refer to what He just described-- the day when Christ returns to give the church relief, to be glorified in the saints, while executing judgment on them that know now God who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

You seem to be reading II Thessalonians 2 through a pre-trib 'filter'-- but how is that consistent with what chapter 1 says. And where is there any Biblical justification at all for using that filter? Where is the evidence for pre-trib, to justify trying to interpret passages through the pre-trib filter?

kenallen · May 9, 2022

Let me start by saying there is no pre,mid,post tribulation. 1st Thessalonians 4:13 to the end make that very clear. The Thessalonian church misunderstood what Paul said so H wrote the 2nd Letter and in chapter 2 explained it to them again. He made it very clear that the Antichrist "Satan" must come first setting himself up as God setting in the Holy place proclaiming to be God. After that then shall Jesus return at the seventh trump not before and not after. He will put His foot on the Mount of Olives split that mountain in 2 making a valley 60 miles square. That is where the New Jeruslsam that comes down from heaven will be set up. Luke 21:10-18 tells us
10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.
This is the destiny some for us that will be alive at that time. What privilege to stand before Death, Satan, The Antichrist and allow The Holy Spirit to speak through us. To deliver a message that will shut the mouth of your adversaries of the gainsayers. Look at verse 18. Anyone that says this is going to be a time of death torture etc. is wrong it will last no more than 10 days and there shall not a hair on your head perish. That is a promise form God to us. Verse 19. In your patience possess your souls. This is what I thank, that I have been tought this is the only time anyone can commit the unpardonable sin. to deny the Holy Spirit to speak through you. I am sure that God would not put someone in that place that would deny the Holy Spirit.

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2022

kenallen said:

This is confused. First, you didn't specify what about pre, mid, or post tribulation. Seems you are saying there will be no Tribulation, which is completely wrong.

Second, we know all about the Tribulation from the OT plus what John saw and wrote about. The Tribulation will end at the battle of Armageddon when Jesus Christ returns at His Second Advent and sets up His Millennial Kingdom.

We know the singular resurrection of all believers will occur "when He comes" back from 1 Cor 15:23.

Your comment about the unpardonable sin has ALREADY been committed, and can NO LONGER be committed.

Mark 3-
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan?
24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.
27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house.
28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter,
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

In this passage, we see that the Jewish leaders claimed that Jesus was possessed by Satan and performing miracles through Satan. v.22

Then Jesus explains how that is stupid. Why would Satan be casting out demons? v.25-26 makes the point that a house divided against itself cannot stand. So Satan would never do that.

v.29 informs us that those Jewish leaders were blaspheming the Holy Spirit by claiming the miracles performed by Jesus came from Satan, when in fact they were from the Holy Spirit Himself.

Anyone who was present and SAW the miracles and believed they were being done by Satan was someone who would NEVER believe the gospel. They are guilty of being being never forgiven due to that hardness of their heart.

So there is no "unpardonable sin" today. Jesus is not on earth visibly performing miracles that people can see and experience.

kenallen · May 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

This is confused. First, you didn't specify what about pre, mid, or post tribulation. Seems you are saying there will be no Tribulation, which is completely wrong.

Second, we know all about the Tribulation from the OT plus what John saw and wrote about. The Tribulation will end at the battle of Armageddon when Jesus Christ returns at His Second Advent and sets up His Millennial Kingdom.

We know the singular resurrection of all believers will occur "when He comes" back from 1 Cor 15:23.

Your comment about the unpardonable sin has ALREADY been committed, and can NO LONGER be committed.

Mark 3-
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan?
24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.
27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house.
28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter,
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

In this passage, we see that the Jewish leaders claimed that Jesus was possessed by Satan and performing miracles through Satan. v.22

Then Jesus explains how that is stupid. Why would Satan be casting out demons? v.25-26 makes the point that a house divided against itself cannot stand. So Satan would never do that.

v.29 informs us that those Jewish leaders were blaspheming the Holy Spirit by claiming the miracles performed by Jesus came from Satan, when in fact they were from the Holy Spirit Himself.

Anyone who was present and SAW the miracles and believed they were being done by Satan was someone who would NEVER believe the gospel. They are guilty of being being never forgiven due to that hardness of their heart.

So there is no "unpardonable sin" today. Jesus is not on earth visibly performing miracles that people can see and experience.

kenallen · May 9, 2022

FreeGrace I am sorry I meant to put in there rapture.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.
This is where the unpardonable sin takes place Verses 14&15. If we do not be quite and listen to the Holy Spirit and allow Him to speak through us that will be the unpardonable sin. I don't thank anyone will commit that sin; I thank Gods elect will stand strong.
As for the miracles:
2nd Corinthians 11:12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
We have his going on in the church today. The church(most not all) are raising up a bunch of spiritual babies and infants that do not know how to rightly divide the word.
Getting off the milk and into the meat has been a problem with the church for a long time but today worse than ever. The great apostasy is upon us.
Isaiah 28:7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
1st Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Hebrews 5:12 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
This is what the church should be doing
1st peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
More to follow

kenallen · May 9, 2022

FreeGrace
Let's finish with the rest of the miracles that Satan can do.
This is the first beast the one world system. We are working hard on that one today.
Revelation 13:1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Here we have the second beast. He is Antichrist. He put everything back in order fixes that one world system.
Daniel 8: 23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
This is where the Antichrist takes over sets himself up proclaiming to be God; He shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper. In other words Antichrist comes in peaceable remember he wants everyone to thank he is Jesus and he comes in prosperly: I have come to rescue you from this oneworld system that has a deadly wound because someone wanted out of it. I am come to bring you peace and with prosperity. Everyone is going to have work everyone is going to have there bills paid. So as he sits in the Holy Place proclaming to be God having everyone come and worship him. This is what Mark 13 and Matthew 24 were talking about when Jesus said that it as spoken of by the Prophet Dainel let the reader understand.

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2022

kenallen said:

No problem. Could you explain what you believe the rapture means.

FreeGrace2 · May 9, 2022

kenallen said:

This is an important point. Thanks for bringing it up.

We know from the story of Job that Satan had the independent power to cause extremely strong winds, which were used to wipe out Job's family, except his wife. Satan is no dummy. He also had the independent power to cause severe skin disease.

While the gospel's account of the violent storm on the lake with Jesus and the 12 doesn't say the storm was caused by Satan, it was the perfect opportunity to wipe out the entire organization at once. While there are those who view the storm as God's doing to allow Jesus to show His power to His disciples, I would disagree. The reason is that Jesus actually REBUKED the wind and waves. And they IMMEDIATELY calmed. Why would Jesus REBUKE what His Father had caused? It just doesn't make sense. However, it makes total sense that Jesus would REBUKE what Satan had caused, esp when it was directed at Jesus and His 12.

And we know that the beast from the sea will perform miracles, as well as the beast out of the land.

kenallen · May 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

The explanation I have gotten is that Jesus is going to come and take the church at some point before Satan is released. some say before the tribulation some say midway and some say after the tribulation. None of that make any sence to me. The bible clearly states that Satan comes at the 6 trump, 6th seal, and 6 vial = his number 666. Jesus comes at the 7th trump, 7th seal and the 7th vial. Here is another thought that I have; Both God and Jesus have said that they will be our protector it says that they take care of the birds of the air and the flowers of the field how much more will they take care of us. In Danial you have the 3 Hebrews that refuse to bow to the king. He gets real mad tells the guards to fire up the furnace 7 times hotter than normal even one or tow of the guards get burned to death. They throw the 3 Hebrews in the fire and what does the king see 4 men in the furnace and one of them looks like the Son of God and they are walking around in the fire. When they come out there is only3 and there is no smell of smoke on them. Same book Danial ends up in the lions den all night long and is not eaten. We could go on and on with these kind of examples. Why do we have them so that we know that God takes care of His children. We could be standing right in the middle of Armagedón and would never get a scratch. God does not have to take us anyplace just because something is going to happen. The parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus Himself gives us the answer to understand that there are only 2 types of people on earth. The children of God the wheat and the children of Satan the tears. The angles are the reapers and they come and gather the tears first from the field (world is what Jesus tells us that means) I don't know about you or anyone else that reads this but I do not want to be taken with Satan first. I want to be gathered last into the barn and not first into the fire.

GaryA · May 9, 2022

For those who might be interested in seeing all of the 'day of the Lord' and similar phrases assembled together and organized on a chart (from a past study):

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Second_Coming.html

The conclusion of the study was that every single occurrance of these phrases was referring to the Second Coming.

What does "the coming of the Lord" in the NT refer to?

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