You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.
- Thread starter KelbyofGod
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Do you know the difference between the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and the filling of the Holy Spirit?
This is very important.
I don't quite understand the difference.
All I knew was that there were four sides of the wind blowing on me, when I was in the bedroom.
Don't worry. Most do not know the difference.
The indwelling of the Spirit is when the Holy Spirit enters the believer. This is also known as the baptism of the Spirit. It is automatic at the moment of saving faith.
The filling of the Spirit is a command (Eph 5:18) to be obeyed. Only good works done from the filling of the Spirit count towards eternal rewards. Works done in the energy of the flesh are offensive to God (Isa 64:6) and will be burned up at the judgment. 1 Cor 3:14-15.
But, to be filled with the Spirit, the believer MUST BE in fellowship with the Lord, another concept not very well understood or even known among many evangelicals.
When a believer sins, they offend God and are "out of fellowship". The only way to restore fellowship with the Lord is through confession of that sin, per 1 John 1:1-9. Once back in fellowship, according to 1 John 5:14,15, to "pray according to God's will" would include praying for the filling of the Spirit, which is a command, and therefore, God's direct will.
I don't know what this means.
That's part of why I post what I post. SOOO many are taught to THINK they have the Holy Ghost, and to reject asking God about it as if that was faithless (instead of prudent).
On the day of Pentecost, did they just think they were filled with the Holy Spirit... or did they start speaking in tongues? Answer: They started speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4).
In Acts 10, when the church learned that salvation is open to the Gentiles also, did they just 'think' that the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost? Answer: No, They were AMAZED that the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost... because they heard them speaking in tongues (Acts 10:44-46).
Same in Acts 19:6 KJV:
"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
Romans 8:16 KJV says "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" <--That's observable. (That's speaking in tongues.) That's not something you have to wonder if you have. Once you have it, use it until God confirms the rest of the promises regarding speaking in tongues (detailed in Romans 8:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 14:2,4,14,etc.)
Don't think God won't give it just because others reject it. EVERYONE needs to be able to build themselves up on their most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost (per Jude 20)<-- That's what speaking in tongues is (per 1 Cor. 14:14) and does (per 1 Cor. 14:4).
Sorry if that sounded rapid-fire. I only sat down for a few minutes to type. I'm hoping you will pray about it rather than just think about it. Give God some credit. He can answer, and he himself doesn't want you to just 'think' you have received the Holy Spirit he wants you to know. And he provides evidence that is even observable by others (per Acts 8:16-18)...but don't offer anyone money for it like Simon did... it's something only given by God himself.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
There were four sides of the wind blowing on me, when I was in the bedroom.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.( John 3:8)
That's a common belief, but it doesn't happen that way, from the first example of people being baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4)
To confirm what I just said we only need to look at the 11 Apostles plus Jesus' statements in Acts 1:4-5 when Jesus is commanding them to TARRY until they recieve it... not saying the false "you received it when you first believed" that is taught today. The first 11 disciples along with the rest of the 120-ish disciples ALL had to tarry until they received it AND they ALL were "filled with the Holy Ghost and began speaking with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4)
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Yes, but that's not where it stops. The Spirit sat on them and they were also filled with the Holy Ghost and began speaking with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance". You must tarry until the work is complete.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
@soberxp
If God was willing to move with you once, do you think he's unwilling to move with you again and finish the work?
In Acts 8 they received only part of the work (belief and baptism in Jesus name) but struggled with receiving the Holy Ghost to the point where 2 apostles (Peter and John) had to come pray for them and lay hands on them before they could actually receive it.
That goes against what @FreeGrace2 was saying. And that's why I point you to Acts 8 instead of Freegrace2. Not trying to cut Freegrace2 down, but the sounds-good-but-isn't-true doctrine of "automatic" vs. "tarry until you receive it" needs to be rejected.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
If God was willing to move with you once, do you think he's unwilling to move with you again and finish the work?
In Acts 8 they received only part of the work (belief and baptism in Jesus name) but struggled with receiving the Holy Ghost to the point where 2 apostles (Peter and John) had to come pray for them and lay hands on them before they could actually receive it.
That goes against what @FreeGrace2 was saying. And that's why I point you to Acts 8 instead of Freegrace2. Not trying to cut Freegrace2 down, but the sounds-good-but-isn't-true doctrine of "automatic" vs. "tarry until you receive it" needs to be rejected.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Once I was enraged by someone, then I wanted to scold, and then A very polite Japanese popped out of my mouth.
I may have learned English, but I have never learned Japanese.
But don't expect me to say anything about prophesy . If you have to let me say it, there will be an earthquake in South America.
The last Fukushima earthquake in Japan, not long after the earthquake in South America, this time Fukushima earthquake in Japan，so........
Now I've got to go do the other things I've been postponing. Keep going for God. I'm guessing Cornelius had served God (in faith) for quite some time before God got the information to him so he could receive the Holy Ghost (with tongues) and be baptized (for remission of sins). Acts 10 whole chapter.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
FreeGrace2 said:
The indwelling of the Spirit is when the Holy Spirit enters the believer. This is also known as the baptism of the Spirit. It is automatic at the moment of saving faith.
The indwelling of the Spirit is when the Holy Spirit enters the believer. This is also known as the baptism of the Spirit. It is automatic at the moment of saving faith.
Trying to equate what happened when the church was just beginning to form isn't a good practice. In the beginning, Gentiles didn't receive the Holy Spirit automatically, as did the Jews. But over time, they did.
Using the VERY EARLY experience of the church is dangerous with which to form a doctrine. Nearly every church had people who had the gift of miracles or healing. How often do you or anyone else see that in churches today?
That's not what happened at the day of Pentecost. ALL (including the apostles) had to wait (even after Jesus had raised from the dead) to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. And ALL spoke in tongues when it was poured out. (Acts 1:4-5, Acts 2:4)
God did NOT need a learning curve. (that's a rather arrogant thought). God knew exactly what he was doing, and No, it's NOT bad practice to use the word of God to see what actually happens vs. trusting the doctrines of man.
And again, that's not what happened at the day of Pentecost. ALL (including the apostles) had to wait (even after Jesus had raised from the dead) to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. And ALL spoke in tongues when it was poured out. (Acts 1:4-5, Acts 2:4)
Again, it is NOT bad practice(or dangerous) to use the examples that God gave us as if they are "examples that God gave us".
And as it was in the early church, so it is now. We see healings and miracles as often as someone stands in faith (not claims of faith) to receive. I've seen numerous healings, miracles, answered prayers in our church and we're not alone in that. We just face persecution if we say it in front of people who judge their own church more trustworthy than the examples God gives in his word. I know that's a bold way to say it but even Paul said the kingdom of God is NOT in word only, but in power. And when he visited, he would be examining the power they had, not the words. What power do you see/have in your own church? Do you have anything more than words and claims of having? If so, do share. But keep in mind, if you start speaking of God doing things, you'll start sounding like the early church. (Jude 1:3)
Love in Jesus,
Keby[/QUOTE]
Tarry until you receive is my view.
People like the woman who touched his garment are even more examples of how God works. She didn't receive until she actually touched him. It MIGHT be accurate to say she didn't fully believe until she touched him, but even that much goes against the doctrine that as soon as you have any bit of faith in Jesus, you've already received.
"Faith without works is dead" is a true doctrine. Tarrying (until you receive) is in some senses putting your faith to WORK. Because we need to seek God UNTIL it works. Whether in healings, miracles, or receiving the Holy Ghost.
My apologies if my previous reply seemed harsh/terse/blunt.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Now I've got to get back to the tasks I was talking about.
@FreeGrace2 , Thanks for your questions. They are good ones.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
@FreeGrace2 , Thanks for your questions. They are good ones.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
No true. When the disciples/apostles asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, Jesus gave them the model prayer. Then He explained some principles of prayer.
Luke 11-
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
v.13 was a direct offer for the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit right then. But they didn't. Jesus had to finally breathe the Holy Spirit on them. John 20:22 - And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit."
" "No one is ...born again...until...repented, baptized and living a righteous life." I can't find this for its not what Christ said. Oh yes I know taking a few verses and putting them together we can make it say that. One can simple call on Him and are saved.
So to the op .. its for me far easier when young. Well He finds you .. you then read, hear about being baptized and you just want that. HAHA or your told you have to which praise God is ok. Then luke 11:13 and yes we that believe in Jesus will all speak with new tongues. For me from Baptist to Word of Faith never met one that was filled with the holy spirit that could not speak in tongues. Just well to make it silly.. just a side effect.. one AWESOME WONERFUL side effect.
So many times we need to get out of His way. That means what we personally believe feel our doctrines if we what all of Him and truth is that is hard. So easy for me to get in His way and stay there for years. I am just here now to say thank you to the miracle man. A song played a few min ago. Just to say thank you to Him. You know if we seek Him.. just ask He by the sweet holy Spirit will show us answer us.. always by what is written
So to the op .. its for me far easier when young. Well He finds you .. you then read, hear about being baptized and you just want that. HAHA or your told you have to which praise God is ok. Then luke 11:13 and yes we that believe in Jesus will all speak with new tongues. For me from Baptist to Word of Faith never met one that was filled with the holy spirit that could not speak in tongues. Just well to make it silly.. just a side effect.. one AWESOME WONERFUL side effect.
So many times we need to get out of His way. That means what we personally believe feel our doctrines if we what all of Him and truth is that is hard. So easy for me to get in His way and stay there for years. I am just here now to say thank you to the miracle man. A song played a few min ago. Just to say thank you to Him. You know if we seek Him.. just ask He by the sweet holy Spirit will show us answer us.. always by what is written
I notice you skipped (omitted) the part where he explained the principle of persistence (rather than thinking everything comes immediately / instantly / without intense and/or sustained effort):
Luke 11:5-8 KJV
[5] And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;
[6] For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?
[7] And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
[8] I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.
Of course some things God gives can and do happen instantly or even before we ask (per Is 65:24) But as the examples in the bible show us, that's not always the case.
But v. 13 was not an offer to instantly receive the Holy Ghost (as it is available now) because another account shows that even though he is offering the thirsty to come to him, they also will need to wait until AFTER he is glorified (a.k.a. after he ascends to the Father.) It wasn't because they didn't ask or have faith (as you supposed).. They were going to need to wait until he is glorified.
John 7:37-39 KJV
[37] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. [38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. [39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Notice he repeats this concept of waiting/tarrying in Acts 1:4-8 reminding his apostles that they have not yet received the baptism with the Holy Ghost. And then he ascends (v.9). And then the Holy Ghost can and does get poured out (Acts 2:1-4).
Nobody got to skip the waiting period.
Many seem to misinterpret/misread what is being said in John 20:22. It is a command and an offer. Just like the offer to ask and receive. It does NOT say that they obeyed the command at that moment, nor does it say they received the benefit at that moment. Those aspects simply are NOT written in John 20:22-23. (Remember the warning about adding to the word).
But you can visit the other 3 gospel accounts and see that it is part of the command to go into all the word preaching the gospel AFTER you receive power from on high (a.k.a after you receive the Holy Ghost, per Acts 1:8) See also Luke 24:46-49, Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-18.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby