Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Here, these verses should answer and refute all of the points you've raised in your post (above). We've posted these and others like them many times before that clearly show only those so chosen by God (as a gift), are able to understand/come to a true faith in Christ. You, however, seem to be either unwilling or unable to comprehend this truth. Read them closely.
[1Co 2:13-15 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[1Co 2:13-15 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
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Really?
[Eph 1:7, 10-11 KJV]
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ...
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[Eph 1:7, 10-11 KJV]
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ...
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
verse 5 tells us those Ephesians believers were predestinated unto the adoption. What is the adoption according to scripture?
Romans 8:23 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
The adoption is the redemption of the believer's body. It is a future event for those who are saved. We groan within ourselves waiting to receive our glorified bodies.
Romans 8:23 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
The adoption is the redemption of the believer's body. It is a future event for those who are saved. We groan within ourselves waiting to receive our glorified bodies.
Did you notice verse 7 - the forgiveness of sins part? Only those saved will received glorified bodies - the forgiveness of sins is its prerequisite: they are the ones who were predestinated which were those Paul was speaking to were already a part of:
[Eph 1:1, 4 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[Eph 1:1, 4 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
It is that the apostles were of a kind of firstfruits - first in terms of sequence of those who would trust Christ throughout time -- not that they trusted in Christ first to become saved (if that's your meaning)
[Jas 1:18 KJV] 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
[Jas 1:18 KJV] 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
FreeGrace2 said:
There are NO verses that teach that man is unable to believe the gospel. Rather, Scripture is filled with commands TO believe the gospel.
You really believe that either of these passages SAY that "only those so chosen by God as a gift are abel to understand/come to a true faith in Christ"?
Well, again, NEITHER say anything like what you have claimed. Neither mentions anything about being chosen as a gift by God.
However, both DO refer to those who have BELIEVED. Since you confuse being chosen and believing as a result of being chosen, you are unable to comprehend many verses.
You would need to find a verse that clearly teaches that God chose who would believe, which is the real foundation for your doctrine of election. But I'll save you the research. There aren't any. So anyone who believes that has believed a made up story.
Titus 3:5 is about how a man is saved: by God's mercy, and by regeneration.
From: http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/new_testament_studies/VOL09/VOL09_10.html
"renewing" This is also a rare term used only twice in the NT, here and Rom. 12:2. It means to cause someone or something to become new. A related term is found in Col. 3:10. Grammatically it is synonymous with "rebirth." There is only one PREPOSITION (dia) for both of them. Therefore, this is not two works of grace, but two aspects of one work. This implies they are one event administered by the Holy Spirit. This would be similar to John 3:5-8 and 1 Pet. 1:23.
In 2 Cor 2, the issue is about the fact that unbelievers cannot understand the "deep things" of God (v.10) which refers back to v.6 - We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
iow, v.13-15 teaches that unbelievers cannot understand the deeper truths or doctrines of Scripture.
It does NOT say that unbelievers cannot understand the gospel. Even though most Calvinists think so.
There are NO verses that teach that man is unable to believe the gospel. Rather, Scripture is filled with commands TO believe the gospel.
You really believe that either of these passages SAY that "only those so chosen by God as a gift are abel to understand/come to a true faith in Christ"?
Well, again, NEITHER say anything like what you have claimed. Neither mentions anything about being chosen as a gift by God.
However, both DO refer to those who have BELIEVED. Since you confuse being chosen and believing as a result of being chosen, you are unable to comprehend many verses.
You would need to find a verse that clearly teaches that God chose who would believe, which is the real foundation for your doctrine of election. But I'll save you the research. There aren't any. So anyone who believes that has believed a made up story.
Titus 3:5 is about how a man is saved: by God's mercy, and by regeneration.
From: http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/new_testament_studies/VOL09/VOL09_10.html
"renewing" This is also a rare term used only twice in the NT, here and Rom. 12:2. It means to cause someone or something to become new. A related term is found in Col. 3:10. Grammatically it is synonymous with "rebirth." There is only one PREPOSITION (dia) for both of them. Therefore, this is not two works of grace, but two aspects of one work. This implies they are one event administered by the Holy Spirit. This would be similar to John 3:5-8 and 1 Pet. 1:23.
In 2 Cor 2, the issue is about the fact that unbelievers cannot understand the "deep things" of God (v.10) which refers back to v.6 - We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
iow, v.13-15 teaches that unbelievers cannot understand the deeper truths or doctrines of Scripture.
It does NOT say that unbelievers cannot understand the gospel. Even though most Calvinists think so.
I'm glad you quoted Eph 1:4 and bolded it. The "us" is a reference to believers, because v.19 says "us who believe". It means the same thing in both verses. So the verse says "God has chosen believers (who are) in Him..."
Notice the parenthesis. The words "in Him" are a parenthetical phrase and so "who are" clarifies the sentence.
Second, the words "that we should be..." form a purpose clause. "should be" is in the subjunctive mood, which is about potential. It is what all believers OUGHT to do. Because all believers were chosen to do it (be holy and blameless).
So Eph 1:4 is a verse that shows the purpose of the election of all believers; service.
Notice the parenthesis. The words "in Him" are a parenthetical phrase and so "who are" clarifies the sentence.
Second, the words "that we should be..." form a purpose clause. "should be" is in the subjunctive mood, which is about potential. It is what all believers OUGHT to do. Because all believers were chosen to do it (be holy and blameless).
So Eph 1:4 is a verse that shows the purpose of the election of all believers; service.
Huh? A roast of incomprehensibility, salted liberally with personal assumptions, stewed in a broth of how in the world can I make this fit into what I already believe it should mean. Cook on a low until done. Then, throw it out and don't eat a bite of it cause it'll kill ya. After that, post the recipe for all to see, declaring it spiritually healthy and diecious -- NOT. Consider that those of us on this thread -- those who typically are in opposition to you -- as being spiritual stomach pumps to remove the poison you spew into unknowing readers.
FreeGrace2 said:
I'm glad you quoted Eph 1:4 and bolded it. The "us" is a reference to believers, because v.19 says "us who believe". It means the same thing in both verses. So the verse says "God has chosen believers (who are) in Him..."
Notice the parenthesis. The words "in Him" are a parenthetical phrase and so "who are" clarifies the sentence.
Second, the words "that we should be..." form a purpose clause. "should be" is in the subjunctive mood, which is about potential. It is what all believers OUGHT to do. Because all believers were chosen to do it (be holy and blameless).
So Eph 1:4 is a verse that shows the purpose of the election of all believers; service.
This would be funny, if not actually really tragic.
Consider that those of us on this thread -- those who typically are in opposition to you -- as being spiritual stomach pumps to remove the poison you spew into unknowing readers.[/QUOTE]
All this nonsense because you can't refute any of it.
You could have just saved your breath and not posted instead.
The really sad thing is that you basically admitted you don't understand what I said about Eph 1:4, even though what I posted was in very clear and plain language.
typical response when one doesn't have any defense or rebuttal. Just a very snarky ad hominem. It is really amazing how many Calvinists lower themselves to such a level when they are in a corner.
I'm glad you quoted Eph 1:4 and bolded it. The "us" is a reference to believers, because v.19 says "us who believe". It means the same thing in both verses. So the verse says "God has chosen believers (who are) in Him..."
Notice the parenthesis. The words "in Him" are a parenthetical phrase and so "who are" clarifies the sentence.
Second, the words "that we should be..." form a purpose clause. "should be" is in the subjunctive mood, which is about potential. It is what all believers OUGHT to do. Because all believers were chosen to do it (be holy and blameless).
So Eph 1:4 is a verse that shows the purpose of the election of all believers; service.
This would be funny, if not actually really tragic.
Consider that those of us on this thread -- those who typically are in opposition to you -- as being spiritual stomach pumps to remove the poison you spew into unknowing readers.[/QUOTE]
All this nonsense because you can't refute any of it.
You could have just saved your breath and not posted instead.
The really sad thing is that you basically admitted you don't understand what I said about Eph 1:4, even though what I posted was in very clear and plain language.
typical response when one doesn't have any defense or rebuttal. Just a very snarky ad hominem. It is really amazing how many Calvinists lower themselves to such a level when they are in a corner.
Paul was an apostle. Those who were the objects of verse 12 were not so, based upon their city of origin, it was based upon sequence (so to speak). They of verse 12, were of those who first trusted in Christ. That is why he used the words "also" in the very next verse(v13) - to distinguish them, as apart, timing wise, from those of verse 12.
[Eph 1:13 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[Eph 1:13 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Lol, no, it’s clearly the order of events that must take place in a person’s life. That he might gather together all things in Christ. To be a part of this gathering, one must first trust in Christ. After you trust in Christ, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the redemption which is the future adoption.
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
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No, I don't think so. The above verses actually support my position, not yours. Did you read the "predestinated" part? If God
had predestinated (see below) those who are to receive the inheritance, then their coming to trust in Christ
was as a result of God's action, not theirs.
Predestinated:
proorizō
had predestinated (see below) those who are to receive the inheritance, then their coming to trust in Christ
was as a result of God's action, not theirs.
Predestinated:
proorizō
- to predetermine, decide beforehand
- in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
- to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Exactly! God predestines those who have first trusted Christ. Predestination is not unto salvation, rather, unto the future adoption which is the redemption of the body. God has predetermined the outcome of the one who first trusts Christ. When you trust in Christ, your outcome is determined. It's a future outcome.
Yes the elect were predestinated to believe in Christ, to have faith in Him Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Now predestinated here precedes called, which precedes Justified. Justified here means, Justified by Faith Rom 5:1. When the elect are effectually called, they are given Faith to believe in Christ for their Justification. So they were predestinated to Faith in Christ
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Now predestinated here precedes called, which precedes Justified. Justified here means, Justified by Faith Rom 5:1. When the elect are effectually called, they are given Faith to believe in Christ for their Justification. So they were predestinated to Faith in Christ
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Did you even read what you quote?
There is NO MENTION of anyone being "predestinated to believe". That is just another Calvinist talking point, but not found in Scripture.
It is amazing to see the verses that Calvinists use that they think supports their claims, but don't even come close.
V.28-30 describes believers. Already saved. v.29 says that all believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.
Every heard the phrase "to be Christ-like"? That's what being conformed to the image of His Son means.
So, v.30 tells us that "whom He did predestinate" refers back to v.29, which is believers who have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.
There is NO MENTION of salvation in this passage.
What you have here is merely a calvinist talking point, but you have NO evidence from the Bible to support the talking point.
There is NO MENTION of anyone being "predestinated to believe". That is just another Calvinist talking point, but not found in Scripture.
It is amazing to see the verses that Calvinists use that they think supports their claims, but don't even come close.
V.28-30 describes believers. Already saved. v.29 says that all believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.
Every heard the phrase "to be Christ-like"? That's what being conformed to the image of His Son means.
So, v.30 tells us that "whom He did predestinate" refers back to v.29, which is believers who have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.
There is NO MENTION of salvation in this passage.
What you have here is merely a calvinist talking point, but you have NO evidence from the Bible to support the talking point.
No, there are two different manifestations of the adoption described in the Bible : 1) an adoption unto the becoming of the spiritual sons of God, 2) an adoption by God unto our new physical bodies; I.E, a spiritual adoption and a bodily adoption. Both adoptions resulting from being singly predestinated through Christ.
[1Jo 3:2 KJV]
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
[Rom 8:23 KJV]
23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
[Rom 8:15 KJV]
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[Gal 4:3-7 KJV]
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
[1Jo 3:2 KJV]
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
[Rom 8:23 KJV]
23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
[Rom 8:15 KJV]
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[Gal 4:3-7 KJV]
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
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