Election and predestination.

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Gideon300

Well-known member
#41
Mar 18, 2021
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#41
John146 said:
Great testimony, but that’s not Bible.
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No, it's not. However, the scriptures used to lead me to the Lord were straight out of Romans, mostly chapters 3 & 6. it was 50 years ago and I still remember. My boss used examples to reveal God's holiness that you also won't find word for word in the Bible. The Bible is a guidebook, not a straitjacket. The Ethiopian eunuch was not saved the same way as the people on the day of Pentecost, or Paul, or Zaccheus or the thief on the cross.
 
soberxp

soberxp

Senior Member
#42
May 3, 2018
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#42
Gideon300 said:
Yes, it's not easy to be brief. I keep in mind that people are busy and not used to reading a lot. There are times when I don't abbreviate as the subject matter is too complex. I then wonder how many people actually read what I've said..........
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I have actually read it, I can't agree with all of it,Especially the rest of it.
If you have such a mentality, then how do you get along with unbelief ?
How did your former boss face you when you were unbelief ?
 
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FreeGrace2

Banned
#43
Jan 31, 2021
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#43
Aerials1978 said:
There is sufficient scripture that indicates an election of chosen people.
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This is not the issue. The issue is solely whether the calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election to salvation is biblical.

Call it Calvinism if you want. It actually goes back to Augustine.
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I will because it is. My challenge to Calvinists is to provide even just one very clear verse that plainly shows that election is to salvation.

My question has been and I’m still waiting for an answer is, was Christ’s death a complete and final propitiation for the atoment of sin or was it a potential one?
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Christ's death fully paid the sin debt for everyone. Those who put their full trust alone in His death for them results in receiving eternal life, which is not earned, but a gift (Rom 6:23).

Paying the sin debt for everyone is what Romans 11:32 is about: 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

When a person believes in Christ, they receive the free gift.

Now, what verse tells us in very plain and clear language that election is to salvation.
 
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FreeGrace2

Banned
#44
Jan 31, 2021
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one2question said:
Double predestination is an awesome doctrine.
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Double predestination is the teaching that God PRE-destined specific people to heaven and specific people to hell. That is unbiblical, unless you agree that "specific people" in the heaven group are believers and unbelievers in the hell group.

God's choice is to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#45
Dec 10, 2019
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#45
FreeGrace2 said:
This is not the issue. The issue is solely whether the calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election to salvation is biblical.


I will because it is. My challenge to Calvinists is to provide even just one very clear verse that plainly shows that election is to salvation.


Christ's death fully paid the sin debt for everyone. Those who put their full trust alone in His death for them results in receiving eternal life, which is not earned, but a gift (Rom 6:23).

Paying the sin debt for everyone is what Romans 11:32 is about: 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

When a person believes in Christ, they receive the free gift.

Now, what verse tells us in very plain and clear language that election is to salvation.
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I will posted a link that you can view and make a determination of the verses that indicate predestination. As you see there is a consistency to all of them.
https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination

As for Christs sacrifice, why did He it is finished as opposed to saying it has begun? You’re basing your presumption on the notion that we choose God and not the other way around. Again that’s not consistent with Biblical Christianity(Or Judaism).
 
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John146

Senior Member
#46
Jan 13, 2016
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#46
Aerials1978 said:
I will posted a link that you can view and make a determination of the verses that indicate predestination. As you see there is a consistency to all of them.
https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination

As for Christs sacrifice, why did He it is finished as opposed to saying it has begun? You’re basing your presumption on the notion that we choose God and not the other way around. Again that’s not consistent with Biblical Christianity(Or Judaism).
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Funny, this website literally says "25 verses about predestination" and there are only 4 verses that actually contain the word. Red flag.
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#47
Dec 10, 2019
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#47
John146 said:
Funny, this website literally says "25 verses about predestination" and there are only 4 verses that actually contain the word. Red flag.
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Are you seeing a theme? Again, you continually misconstrue scripture.
 
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FreeGrace2

Banned
#48
Jan 31, 2021
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#48
Aerials1978 said:
I will posted a link that you can view and make a determination of the verses that indicate predestination.
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But that is not the issue either. My challenge is about a clear verse showing that unconditional election is to salvation.

As you see there is a consistency to all of them.
https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination
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I wouldn't advise on opening this link. Once in, I couldn't back out. When I closed the link, I had to go back into the "chat forums".

Consistency about predestination isn't the issue.

[QUOTE\]As for Christs sacrifice, why did He it is finished as opposed to saying it has begun?[/QUOTE]
Because the ENTIRE sin debt of humanity WAS paid in full before He physically died on the cross.

You’re basing your presumption on the notion that we choose God and not the other way around.
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Hardly. There is no presumption. I would say it is your presumption that I have one.

There are numerous verses that plainly say that Christ for all. It doesn't mean "all of some", as some have argued.

All I'm looking for is just one very clear and straightforward verse that says or shows that unconditional election is to salvation.
 
Beckie

Beckie

Well-known member
#49
Feb 15, 2022
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#49
John146 said:
Funny, this website literally says "25 verses about predestination" and there are only 4 verses that actually contain the word. Red flag.
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How many times do we find the word rapture in Scripture ?
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#50
Dec 10, 2019
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#50
FreeGrace2 said:
But that is not the issue either. My challenge is about a clear verse showing that unconditional election is to salvation.


I wouldn't advise on opening this link. Once in, I couldn't back out. When I closed the link, I had to go back into the "chat forums".

Consistency about predestination isn't the issue.

[QUOTE\]As for Christs sacrifice, why did He it is finished as opposed to saying it has begun?
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Because the ENTIRE sin debt of humanity WAS paid in full before He physically died on the cross.


Hardly. There is no presumption. I would say it is your presumption that I have one.

There are numerous verses that plainly say that Christ for all. It doesn't mean "all of some", as some have argued.

All I'm looking for is just one very clear and straightforward verse that says or shows that unconditional election is to salvation.[/QUOTE]
There are verses that indicate God destined those for salvation and those that are condemned. There is a continuous statement made by God that He determines outcomes.

If Christs sacrifice was for all, who are the ones that got away? Jesus clearly says in John chapter 17 that all that have been given to Him by the Father shall not be lost, except the one destine for destruction(Judas). If all are redeemable and God can do anything, why are so many lost? Did Jesus fail in a way?

Also, was Judas used by God for a purpose? Did Judas really have a choice? Jesus said scripture had to be fulfilled. It’s difficult for I try and rectify these things from a finite point of view.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#51
Jan 13, 2016
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#51
Aerials1978 said:
Are you seeing a theme? Again, you continually misconstrue scripture.
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Simple question: Does predestination have to do with the redemption of the body or salvation?
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#53
Dec 10, 2019
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#53
John146 said:
Simple question: Does predestination have to do with the redemption of the body or salvation?
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Simple answer: God chose those that will belong to Him.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#54
Jan 13, 2016
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#54
Aerials1978 said:
Simple answer: God chose those that will belong to Him.
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What's the adoption according to scripture? Is this salvation? Or the redemption of the body?

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#55
Dec 10, 2019
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#55
John146 said:
What's the adoption according to scripture? Is this salvation? Or the redemption of the body?

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
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I don’t even know what you’re talking about. This makes absolutely no sense. Of course you believe in dispensationism so you could be aiming at anything
 
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John146

Senior Member
#56
Jan 13, 2016
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#56
Aerials1978 said:
I don’t even know what you’re talking about. This makes absolutely no sense. Of course you believe in dispensationism so you could be aiming at anything
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If you've been predestinated unto the adoption....then what is the adoption according to scripture? Scripture defines the adoption in Romans 8:23. What is the adoption?
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#58
Dec 10, 2019
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#58
John146 said:
If you've been predestinated unto the adoption....then what is the adoption according to scripture? Scripture defines the adoption in Romans 8:23. What is the adoption?
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You’re adopted into the family of God by the promise made to Abraham who God chose as the patriarch of the Jews. Now tell me how I’m wrong.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#59
Jan 13, 2016
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#59
Aerials1978 said:
You’re adopted into the family of God by the promise made to Abraham who God chose as the patriarch of the Jews. Now tell me how I’m wrong.
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The adoption is a future event. The adoption, according to scripture, is the redemption of the body.
 
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