Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,888
4,540
113
Couldn't agree more. Though many people seem incapable of turning a critical eye upon themselves. I'm sure everyone in this thread thinks they are 100% accurate and everyone else needs to get in line behind them.
I agree. But ultimately sometimes it just comes down to the Spirit. The Spirit has everyone at a different spot in their journey. God's wisdom and truth is revealed in deeper ways the closer we grow.

That deeper wisdom gives a deeper interpretation versus maybe someone who isn't as far along in their journey.

Everyone can grasp the simple gospel message (the milk) but it is the solid food that everyone should strive to consume.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
"Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection"

Absolutely not!
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
Strange how the HIGHLY judgmental water baptism preachers aren't baptize Biblically in the Name of Jesus! Any yet they think they are saved.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Believing and being baptized is the great commission. it's about salvation of the soul and the first resurrection.
Here is the commission Jesus gave to His 11 apostles:

Matt 28-
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

v.19 is evangelism; to make disciples, and then baptizing them.
v.20 is for spiritual growth: teaching them to obey everything Jesus commanded His disciples.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
The thief on the cross wasn't baptized in water. Jesus CLEARLY said the thief was saved.
Which verse says he wasn't baptized?

you should be careful to not say things that are not in scripture. You are not being a good steward of the word of God.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
I agree. But ultimately sometimes it just comes down to the Spirit. The Spirit has everyone at a different spot in their journey. God's wisdom and truth is revealed in deeper ways the closer we grow.

That deeper wisdom gives a deeper interpretation versus maybe someone who isn't as far along in their journey.

Everyone can grasp the simple gospel message (the milk) but it is the solid food that everyone should strive to consume.
Yes I agree. However, one point is that not everyone can grasp the "simple gospel message." Some people manage to turn that on its head too. The great commission says to preach the gospel, make disciples, and baptize.

Here's a good picture comparing the great commission in each gospel book, courtesy of Wikipedia that I feel the need to share here.

GC.JPG
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Yes I agree. However, one point is that not everyone can grasp the "simple gospel message." Some people manage to turn that on its head too. The great commission says to preach the gospel, make disciples, and baptize.
It seems you missed my post which quoted Matt 28:19,20 and showed the TWO purposes of the commission.

To evangelize in v.19. And to TEACH everything Jesus taught the disciples in v.20.

So we have evangelism, followed by the process of teaching the disciples for spiritual growth.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,888
4,540
113
Yes I agree. However, one point is that not everyone can grasp the "simple gospel message." Some people manage to turn that on its head too. The great commission says to preach the gospel, make disciples, and baptize.

Here's a good picture comparing the great commission in each gospel book, courtesy of Wikipedia that I feel the need to share here.

View attachment 239597
It is simple in concept that yes we need a baptism of change which either way at a beginner of faith we understand that baptism should be connected to a transformation.

But a more deeper study speaks of two baptisms. One of Spirit and one of water.

The one that changes is the Spirit and Biblically we only saw change through the Spirit because the Spirit entered a new believer before, during, and after a baptism.

The Spirit is what seals someone for salvation. In salvation we are promised a new body. So it would be a contadiction to say they do not get a new body without baptism of water. The contradiction being that the Spirit did in fact enter someone before a water baptism. Immediately they were sealed.

Pentecost being one major example.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,888
4,540
113
It seems you missed my post which quoted Matt 28:19,20 and showed the TWO purposes of the commission.

To evangelize in v.19. And to TEACH everything Jesus taught the disciples in v.20.

So we have evangelism, followed by the process of teaching the disciples for spiritual growth.
I would even say that is immersion. Discipleship is the immersion of someone into the faith. Similar to the assimilation of immigrants to a new culture. They must be immersed in all things of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
3,636
113
1 Corinthians 15:29 KJV
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

After having discussed the order of the resurrection in the preceding verses, Paul immediately asked a question without directly giving the answer because it's a rhetorical question that the reader of the Bible is supposed to know the answer to. Often this verse is misinterpreted by LDS folk to mean that it's possible to perform a substitutionary water baptism for someone who has died, under the belief that water baptism is a prerequisite for eternal salvation; this part is false.

However, Paul asks these question in regards to the order of the resurrection of the righteous, not eternal salvation. Now I will give you the correct answers to Paul's rhetorical questions in plain English showing a few different Bible versions with it.

Question 1:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? KJV
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? NIV
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? ESV

Answer 1:
We can reverse engineer Paul's line of thinking here by questioning why they are getting immersed if there is no resurrection of the dead. There is a resurrection of the dead and in order to take part in the resurrection you must be water baptized. That's basically what Paul is suggesting here and I will provide numerous scriptures that support it later in this post.

Question 2:
why are they then baptized for the dead? KJV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? NIV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? ESV

Answer 2:
This question is similar to the first question and so is the answer. The answer is that people are attempting to help deceased people by performing a water baptism for them so that they can be resurrected. There is no evidence from scripture that a substitutionary posthumous water baptism is effective to qualify a dead person for a resurrection, but there is evidence that a water baptism can provide a living person a resurrection.

After we understand these vital clues about Paul's water baptism theology, we can more accurately understand what the purpose of water baptism is he preached everywhere he went. It isn't about eternal salvation of the soul as some people think; Paul meant that water baptism is literally about becoming eligible to have an immortal resurrected body.

Paul is teaching that water baptism is literally necessary to have a resurrected body:
Romans 6:4-5 KJV
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

Again:
Colossians 2:12
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Again:
Galatians 3:27 KJV
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Once you understand that water baptism is about the righteous getting a resurrected body in the first resurrection, you'll understand why Paul often made water baptism less important than preaching the gospel. It is more important to save as many souls as possible with the Gospel of Christ than it is to get people into the first resurrection:

1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
NO!!!!! Water Baptism does NOT SAVE ANY ONE….. instead it is like “circumcision,” simply a SIGN OF THE NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST…that’s ALL.

Circumcision could NOT SAVE and Water Baptism does NOT SAVE.

Circumcision was the SIGN of the Old Covenant and Water Baptism is the SIGN of the New Covenant IN CHRIST - we BELIEVE in His death, burial and resurrection, likewise, God has promised we too will die, be buried and rise from the dead!

ONLY THE BLOOD AND BODY OF JESUS CHRIST SAVES US. Amen.
 
S

Seeking-Christ

Guest
NO!!!!! Water Baptism does NOT SAVE ANY ONE….. instead it is like “circumcision,” simply a SIGN OF THE NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST…that’s ALL.

Circumcision could NOT SAVE and Water Baptism does NOT SAVE.

Circumcision was the SIGN of the Old Covenant and Water Baptism is the SIGN of the New Covenant IN CHRIST - we BELIEVE in His death, burial and resurrection, likewise, God has promised we too will die, be buried and rise from the dead!

ONLY THE BLOOD AND BODY OF JESUS CHRIST SAVES US. Amen.
That is the way I have always been taught to believe. I was trying to read the original post, and got confused. Just feels like there is some verses being taken out of context in some way.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
NO!!!!! Water Baptism does NOT SAVE ANY ONE….. instead it is like “circumcision,” simply a SIGN OF THE NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST…that’s ALL.

Circumcision could NOT SAVE and Water Baptism does NOT SAVE.

Circumcision was the SIGN of the Old Covenant and Water Baptism is the SIGN of the New Covenant IN CHRIST - we BELIEVE in His death, burial and resurrection, likewise, God has promised we too will die, be buried and rise from the dead!

ONLY THE BLOOD AND BODY OF JESUS CHRIST SAVES US. Amen.
I’m sure you had something interesting to say, but on Internet forums excessive exclamation marks and capital letters is tantamount to screaming. It makes you seem like it isn’t worth engaging you if you can’t be calm and that also hurts your witness to an extent. Please take that constructively.

I did read your post, though, and I have to disagree. Water baptism is not a “sign” of the new covenant nor does the Bible say that anywhere I am aware of. Please quote scripture for that if there is any.

My question to get you thinking is…. Is there a literal resurrection coming for all who are dead in Christ? Of course.

So what do you think Romans 6:4,5 means? It means water baptism is for a literal resurrection.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
That is the way I have always been taught to believe. I was trying to read the original post, and got confused. Just feels like there is some verses being taken out of context in some way.
That’s a new doctrine to me. What denomination is that taught in? Are there any verses about water baptism being a “sign” of the new covenant?
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
I would even say that is immersion. Discipleship is the immersion of someone into the faith. Similar to the assimilation of immigrants to a new culture. They must be immersed in all things of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Good point about immersion! Means a whole lot more than just getting wet.

I get a kick out of Paul's comment about the Jews being "baptized into Moses and INTO THE SEA", yet all of them walked through the Red Sea ON DRY GROUND!!

It was the entire Egyptian army who were IMMERSED in the Red Sea and were killed.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Decided to begin my own adventure into the false doctrine of water baptism being a sign on the new covenant. It seems like denominations everywhere are making an effort to distant themselves from water baptism.

A new covenant:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJV
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

A new covenant:
Hebrews 8:12,13 KJV
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Christ's blood of the new covenant:
Matthew 26:28
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
My question to get you thinking is…. Is there a literal resurrection coming for all who are dead in Christ? Of course.
Huh? But the OP claims that unbaptized believers won't be resurrected. Have you flipped on your belief?

So what do you think Romans 6:4,5 means? It means water baptism is for a literal resurrection.
OK, so you haven't flipped. But you certainly show your confusion. Since ALL believers will be resurrected, water baptism CANNOT be an issue. And 1 Cor 15:29 is about PROXY baptism anyway. How would a proxy baptism work anyway? You seem rather hesitant to answer my questions.

And, while we're at it, what happens to those unbaptized believers in your view when they miss resurrection??

Have you throught this through?
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,273
1,110
113
There are no verses that show that salvation or justification requires water baptism.


Showing that water baptism WAS NOT NECESSARY for salvation.

In fact, this is fully supported by what Peter quoted Cornelius as telling him:

Acts 11-
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

Once again we see clearly that is the message that is to be believed that "will save".

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Where do you find any mention of water baptism in v.16?


yes, that was the command for how to baptize. Doesn't support your claim about being necessary for salvation.


Since Acts 11:14 proves that salvation is by believing the gospel message, water baptism isn't necessary for salvation at all.
Jesus statement in Mark 15:16 backs up the requirement to be baptized.

Salvation is not possible without the remission of one's sin. The Roman's verse references that the gospel brings salvation. The gospel message includes the command for everyone to be baptized for the remission of sin as found elsewhere in scripture. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

Acts 11: Peter's gospel message included the command to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 10:47-48)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,273
1,110
113
NO!!!!! Water Baptism does NOT SAVE ANY ONE….. instead it is like “circumcision,” simply a SIGN OF THE NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST…that’s ALL.

Circumcision could NOT SAVE and Water Baptism does NOT SAVE.

Circumcision was the SIGN of the Old Covenant and Water Baptism is the SIGN of the New Covenant IN CHRIST - we BELIEVE in His death, burial and resurrection, likewise, God has promised we too will die, be buried and rise from the dead!

ONLY THE BLOOD AND BODY OF JESUS CHRIST SAVES US. Amen.
God has always required obedience. God's purposes hinge on man's compliance per God's design.

You state neither circumcision nor baptism play a part in salvation. The NT command to be water baptized parallels the OT circumcision requirement. The OT circumcision was essential for individuals who wished to remain in covenant with God. (Gen. 17:9-14)

Also, consider that God set out to kill Moses because of his sinful disobedience. What caused this possible death sentence? Moses had neglected to circumcise his son. (Exodus 4:24-26)