Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[posthuman]

It does say Saul talked with "Samuel" indeed because the demon spirit took the form of Samuel.

To assert that the being that materialized before Saul at the behest of a Satan worshiping witch was the dead prophet Samuel is to argue Satan has power over God's servants, which the NT flatly denies and says the exact opposite.

the scripture says it was Samuel.
God certainly knows how to say 'a lying spirit' or 'a demon' - these are definitely terms in His vocabulary.
God, the Author of scripture, says this is Samuel. several times.
i believe Him.

you say the scripture is false - by extension you call God a liar.
you are explicitly arguing that God's Word is purposefully misleading the reader and should not be trusted.
your argument is that the Bible is not true, which is, that God does not tell the truth.
which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has followed this thread, since you also call Jesus a teacher of doctrines of demons.
you don't appear by your conversation to believe Him.

case closed on these topics quite a long time ago.

to the other point, there is no reason to think that Samuel was sent by Satan.
God sent him. ask yourself why this passage is in the Book; how is it revealing Christ?
if we can't find Christ in the Bible, we do not properly understand the Bible.
maybe you should look for Him instead of looking for demons everywhere.

if you truly believe that Satan has no power over God's servants i wonder why you make it your life goal to teach God's servants that Satan has power to remove their salvation?

 

[TheLearner]

If Solomon says the dead "return no more again to his house" and "know not anything" and have nothing to do "with anything that is done under the sun"...is it proper to claim Samuel returned to Saul or was it a "familiar spirit" (which is a demon impersonating a dead person) that visited Saul, which the book of Chronicles says the reason Saul died is because he sought out one that had such a spirit?

I forgot what I was going to say.

 

[TheLearner]

Welcome! Of course, we must remain consistent. It's inconsistent for us to claim the passage in Luke 16 is literal, but then make the elements therein symbolic. If the passage is literal, then all the literal righteous dead from Adam until Jesus must literally go into Abraham's literal bosom at death - which cannot be possible.

However, making "Abraham's Bosom" a symbolic element of the passage proves the passage is symbolic. Besides, there are too many contradictions which arise if we make the passage literal, such as how can these three dead guys have bodies before the resurrection when the Bible only speaks of TWO kinds of bodies: the one we have now and the one we get in the resurrection?

Some will say, "it must be speaking of some 'soul body' that exists between the one we have now and the one we get later"...fine, but where is the text? We can read the Bible from cover to cover and we will not find a single line supporting that

Even a literal text can use figures of speech.

 

[TheLearner]

Hold on, there! Let's not start off on the wrong foot by making such assertions before the evidence has a chance to speak, OK?

If all the literal righteous dead go bodily into Abraham's literal bosom, what size must that bosom be to accommodate al those dead? The moon? What about Texas?
You can't have it both ways - either the bosom is literal and passage are literal or the bosom and passage are symbolic.

Brother now you are getting silly, but it is funny.

 

[TheLearner]

I'll share with you from Genesis 2:7 KJV what the Bible says is the difference:

Body = dust of the ground
Breath of Life = what God breathes into the dust of the ground to turn it into a living Soul
Living Soul = what comes into existence at the union of the Body and the Breath of Life

Body + Breath = Soul comes into existence
Body - Breath = Soul goes out of existence

Most believe the Soul and the Spirit (Breath of Life) are one in the same, but that is easily shown to be erroneous by the fact that Jesus' Breath went up to God but His Soul was down in the grave, and God's Word is able to "divide assunder the Soul and Spirit".

Scripture is still progessive, example Jesus as the Messiah fullfilling the O.t.

 

[TheLearner]

If they are alive in heaven, how can they not know what's going on down here? After all, "we" humans are made a "spectacle" to men and angels, but not to the "dead which are alive in heaven"? Furthermore, countless people believe their dead loved ones "watch over us" or some variation of that. I think it's a huge stretch to surmise our dead loved ones in heaven - if that is where they are - are unaware of our circumstances. After all, didn't "Samuel" know all about what was happening to Saul? We know the devil knows...and can tell his angels to go and impersonate people like "Samuel" as "familiar spirits", too.
It does say Saul talked with "Samuel" indeed because the demon spirit took the form of Samuel.

To assert that the being that materialized before Saul at the behest of a Satan worshiping witch was the dead prophet Samuel is to argue Satan has power over God's servants, which the NT flatly denies and says the exact opposite.

The same way I would not know what is happening with individuals in other places unless they are in the News. In short, both are different places. Last I checked htere are no newspapers in heaven on individutals on earth. Yes, part of that is meant to be funny.

 

[TheLearner]

Hi all, I am very sick. Don't let me give you all a holy kiss.

 

[Phoneman-777]

the scripture says it was Samuel.
God certainly knows how to say 'a lying spirit' or 'a demon' - these are definitely terms in His vocabulary.
God, the Author of scripture, says this is Samuel. several times.
i believe Him.
you say the scripture is false - by extension you call God a liar.
you are explicitly arguing that God's Word is purposefully misleading the reader and should not be trusted.
your argument is that the Bible is not true, which is, that God does not tell the truth.
which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has followed this thread, since you also call Jesus a teacher of doctrines of demons.
you don't appear by your conversation to believe Him.

case closed on these topics quite a long time ago.

to the other point, there is no reason to think that Samuel was sent by Satan.
God sent him. ask yourself why this passage is in the Book; how is it revealing Christ?
if we can't find Christ in the Bible, we do not properly understand the Bible.
maybe you should look for Him instead of looking for demons everywhere.

if you truly believe that Satan has no power over God's servants i wonder why you make it your life goal to teach God's servants that Satan has power to remove their salvation?

Two possibilities:
1) "Samuel" was actually Samuel.
2) "Samuel" was a demon "familiar spirit" impersonating Samuel.

Reasons to believe number "1":

• The apparition is called "Samuel".

Reasons to believe number "2":

• A dead man cannot return anymore to his house, but the demonic spirit appeared to Saul
• A dead man has nothing to do with anything under the sun, but the demonic spirit is in meeting with Saul
• A dead man doesn't know anything but the demonic spirit knows a whole lot about Saul's situation
• A dead man has no emotions but this demonic spirit demonstrates annoyance toward Saul
• A dead man has no wisdom for himself, but the demonic spirit imparts wisdom to Saul
• Saul died "for seeking out one who had a familiar spirit
• Satan has no power to force the righteous to appear before a satanic witch and Saul
• God has forbade his people from having anything to do with the "unfruitful works of darkness"

Now, if you're willing to ignore the mountain of evidence against your position and instead insist that "Samuel" was actually Samuel merely because the Bible refers to what can only be a demonic apparition impersonating Samuel as such, go right ahead. Those who have holy spirit discernment know "the dead know not anything" and will not be decieved by the soon coming army of demonic spirits who go forth to work miracles and deceive millions of "Christians" to joining the enemy via Spiritualism.

 

[TheLearner]

Two possibilities:
1) "Samuel" was actually Samuel.
2) "Samuel" was a demon "familiar spirit" impersonating Samuel.

Reasons to believe number "1":

• The apparition is called "Samuel".

Reasons to believe number "2":

• A dead man cannot return anymore to his house, but the demonic spirit appeared to Saul
• A dead man has nothing to do with anything under the sun, but the demonic spirit is in meeting with Saul
• A dead man doesn't know anything but the demonic spirit knows a whole lot about Saul's situation
• A dead man has no emotions but this demonic spirit demonstrates annoyance toward Saul
• A dead man has no wisdom for himself, but the demonic spirit imparts wisdom to Saul
• Saul died "for seeking out one who had a familiar spirit
• Satan has no power to force the righteous to appear before a satanic witch and Saul
• God has forbade his people from having anything to do with the "unfruitful works of darkness"

Now, if you're willing to ignore the mountain of evidence against your position and instead insist that "Samuel" was actually Samuel merely because the Bible refers to what can only be a demonic apparition impersonating Samuel as such, go right ahead. Those who have holy spirit discernment know "the dead know not anything" and will not be decieved by the soon coming army of demonic spirits who go forth to work miracles and deceive millions of "Christians" to joining the enemy via Spiritualism.

Saul would not be returning to his house

 

[Phoneman-777]

Saul would not be returning to his house

Saul did not LOL He died there for turning his back on God.

And since the dead do not return to their house (be that their home or nation) what appeared to Saul and the witch could not possibly have been dead Samuel.

 

[TheLearner]

Saul did not LOL He died there for turning his back on God.

And since the dead do not return to their house (be that their home or nation) what appeared to Saul and the witch could not possibly have been dead Samuel.

I am ill and very tired

 

[FreeGrace2]

If they are alive in heaven, how can they not know what's going on down here?

They don't have cable, radios, or telephones. Why would they be aware of current events?

After all, "we" humans are made a "spectacle" to men and angels, but not to the "dead which are alive in heaven"?

Living men and angels travel from heaven to earth and back all the time. But unless there is evidence that the dead do know what's going on down here, there is no reason to believe it. And the OT verse about the "dead not knowing anything" I believe, does show that they do not know current events on earth. What else would it mean? And I'm not buying soul sleep at all.

Furthermore, countless people believe their dead loved ones "watch over us" or some variation of that.

Do any of them have biblical support for that? It's just a nice sentiment. Not factual.

I think it's a huge stretch to surmise our dead loved ones in heaven - if that is where they are - are unaware of our circumstances.

Why do you believe that believers in heaven would be burdened by all the evil that is going on down here? In heaven, they are at peace. I take that quite literally.

After all, didn't "Samuel" know all about what was happening to Saul?

That's a special case, obviously. No doubt either the Lord, an angel who probably escorted him to earth, or Abraham filled him in. And Samuel's name doesn't have quote marks around it.

We know the devil knows...and can tell his angels to go and impersonate people like "Samuel" as "familiar spirits", too.
It does say Saul talked with "Samuel" indeed because the demon spirit took the form of Samuel.

I reject that the one who showed up wasn't Samuel. The Bible directly refers to him as Samuel.

To assert that the being that materialized before Saul at the behest of a Satan worshiping witch was the dead prophet Samuel is to argue Satan has power over God's servants, which the NT flatly denies and says the exact opposite.

I won't address this because I reject the notion that it wasn't actually Samuel who came back.

Read the text. It plainly says it was Samuel. If it was a demon, the Bible would have noted it. How dishonest of the Bible to say that Samuel spoke if it really wasn't him.

 

[TheLearner]

They don't have cable, radios, or telephones. Why would they be aware of current events?


Living men and angels travel from heaven to earth and back all the time. But unless there is evidence that the dead do know what's going on down here, there is no reason to believe it. And the OT verse about the "dead not knowing anything" I believe, does show that they do not know current events on earth. What else would it mean? And I'm not buying soul sleep at all.


Do any of them have biblical support for that? It's just a nice sentiment. Not factual.


Why do you believe that believers in heaven would be burdened by all the evil that is going on down here? In heaven, they are at peace. I take that quite literally.


That's a special case, obviously. No doubt either the Lord, an angel who probably escorted him to earth, or Abraham filled him in. And Samuel's name doesn't have quote marks around it.


I reject that the one who showed up wasn't Samuel. The Bible directly refers to him as Samuel.


I won't address this because I reject the notion that it wasn't actually Samuel who came back.

Read the text. It plainly says it was Samuel. If it was a demon, the Bible would have noted it. How dishonest of the Bible to say that Samuel spoke if it really wasn't him.

The proof text only applied to the grave, not to heaven. Hebrews 12:1

 

[JeffA]

No. Jesus did not say any such thing about this narrative. When Christ specifically named the beggar as Lazarus, and specifically related the dialogue between Abraham and the rich man, He made it clear that He was relating an actual account of what happened in Sheol/Hades.

GAEBELEIN'S COMMENTARY
Luke 16:19-31
A solemn paragraph closes the chapter. Avoid the use of the word “parable” in connection with these verses. The Lord said, “There was a certain rich man.” It is history and not a parable. The derision of the Pharisees on account of the Lord’s words about the unjust steward must have been based upon their trust in the law and the promise of the law, that temporal blessings and riches were in store for all who keep the law. The story our Lord relates is aimed once more at the sneering, unbelieving, self-righteous Pharisees.

If you believe that this is Not a parable, then you have stripped an awful lot of scripture from reconciliation.

 

[posthuman]

I am ill and very tired

get some rest, brother

 

[posthuman]

Two possibilities:
1) "Samuel" was actually Samuel.
2) "Samuel" was a demon "familiar spirit" impersonating Samuel.

Reasons to believe number "1":

• The apparition is called "Samuel".

Reasons to believe number "2":

• A dead man cannot return anymore to his house, but the demonic spirit appeared to Saul
• A dead man has nothing to do with anything under the sun, but the demonic spirit is in meeting with Saul
• A dead man doesn't know anything but the demonic spirit knows a whole lot about Saul's situation
• A dead man has no emotions but this demonic spirit demonstrates annoyance toward Saul
• A dead man has no wisdom for himself, but the demonic spirit imparts wisdom to Saul
• Saul died "for seeking out one who had a familiar spirit
• Satan has no power to force the righteous to appear before a satanic witch and Saul
• God has forbade his people from having anything to do with the "unfruitful works of darkness"

Now, if you're willing to ignore the mountain of evidence against your position and instead insist that "Samuel" was actually Samuel merely because the Bible refers to what can only be a demonic apparition impersonating Samuel as such, go right ahead. Those who have holy spirit discernment know "the dead know not anything" and will not be decieved by the soon coming army of demonic spirits who go forth to work miracles and deceive millions of "Christians" to joining the enemy via Spiritualism.

When are you going to figure out that your private nihilism leads irrevocably to blasphemy therefore it is wrong? You are horrendously misinterpretating several key passages but you are too full of yourself for me to even bother trying.

You need to get to the point in your life where glorifying God is more important than your own vanity.

Until then you will be nothing but yet another puffed up fool.

Samuel is a picture of Christ, not Satan.

 

[posthuman]

​

These are the ones I look on with favor:​

those who are humble and contrite in spirit,
and who tremble at My word.
(Isaiah 66:2)​

 

[Magenta]

These are the ones I look on with favor:​

those who are humble and contrite in spirit,​

and who tremble at My word.​

(Isaiah 66:2)​

From Isaiah 66:1-2

 

[Duckybill]

"Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus"

"Interpreting" is a RED FLAG. It's perfectly clear except to those heading to the fire the rich man was in. Hell fire will be FILLED with those who don't believe in the "everlasting fire" that Jesus clearly warned us of! Satan has been busy! He want's our company "forever and ever" as Jesus warned!

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

 

[FreeGrace2]

The proof text only applied to the grave, not to heaven. Hebrews 12:1

Right. And the grave isn't in heaven. So, those in heaven aren't aware of current events on earth.