You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

[KelbyofGod]

I did speak in tongues. I don't believe it is essential.

Thanks for again answering openly.

I was a Baptist, oddly enough, before being baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sins and receiving the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues.

I found it odd that "Baptist" doctrine was that baptism was optional. But that wasn't why I left.

They'd taught me enough about God that I learned how to pray (in faith and in the way that leads to God answering). It was the praying (after discovering the non-function of their teachings on salvation) that is part of what brought me in contact with those who told me about baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost with tongues.

Some might think I was a sucker for new doctrine but that's not exactly the case. I was excited to have discovered the word about those topics was neither past tense nor dead, but having come out of deceptive doctrine I would accept nothing without testing and proof.

So once I'd received speaking in tongues (THAT was an experience by faith) I put it to the test.

Did it edify me (build me up) as promised? Yes, but it functions a bit like alcohol. If you just use it a little, you likely won't feel the effects or see the life-changing aspects. So I did it a lot.

Did it help mine infirmities, (Specifically start fixing my weaknesses)? Yes, but again proportionate to amount of use. Seemingly in exponential proportions, to be honest.

Did I find speaking in tongues "prayed for things I know not" and in ways producing better results than my best prayers in English? Yes. I'd learned how to pray and get answers (results) when I prayed in English, But even though I would receive EXACTLY what I prayed for, I often didn't like the consequences that I'd not foreseen.

Did He bring to my remembrance whatever God had said? And show me things to come? Yes, and yes. (Again proportional to use). Allow laying on of hands for healings? (to actually happen)? Yes.

I tested (or am still testing) every promise I could think of (through actual use) to see if the babbly speaking in tongues today produces the results that were promised back then. And in all things I've found the answers to be "yes" and "Amen!". Even the less enjoyable ones like persecution and the unlearned and unbelievers thinking us to be mad (not angry) if we all happen to be praying in tongues at the same time. And even though I don't know exactly what's being prayed when I'm "rattling off in tongues" sometimes for hours at a time, I do know the results... and they're good.

So my question to you (after the long preamble, lol) is:
Do you use your speaking in tongues a LOT (enough to clearly see what results it produces) or just a little? (to where your thoughts and interpretations of scriptures is still the predominant way you assess the value of what you've received)?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[peldom10]

Thanks for again answering openly.

I was a Baptist, oddly enough, before being baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sins and receiving the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues.

I found it odd that "Baptist" doctrine was that baptism was optional. But that wasn't why I left.

They'd taught me enough about God that I learned how to pray (in faith and in the way that leads to God answering). It was the praying (after discovering the non-function of their teachings on salvation) that is part of what brought me in contact with those who told me about baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost with tongues.

Some might think I was a sucker for new doctrine but that's not exactly the case. I was excited to have discovered the word about those topics was neither past tense nor dead, but having come out of deceptive doctrine I would accept nothing without testing and proof.

So once I'd received speaking in tongues (THAT was an experience by faith) I put it to the test.

Did it edify me (build me up) as promised? Yes, but it functions a bit like alcohol. If you just use it a little, you likely won't feel the effects or see the life-changing aspects. So I did it a lot.

Did it help mine infirmities, (Specifically start fixing my weaknesses)? Yes, but again proportionate to amount of use. Seemingly in exponential proportions, to be honest.

Did I find speaking in tongues "prayed for things I know not" and in ways producing better results than my best prayers in English? Yes. I'd learned how to pray and get answers (results) when I prayed in English, But even though I would receive EXACTLY what I prayed for, I often didn't like the consequences that I'd not foreseen.

Did He bring to my remembrance whatever God had said? And show me things to come? Yes, and yes. (Again proportional to use). Allow laying on of hands for healings? (to actually happen)? Yes.

I tested (or am still testing) every promise I could think of (through actual use) to see if the babbly speaking in tongues today produces the results that were promised back then. And in all things I've found the answers to be "yes" and "Amen!". Even the less enjoyable ones like persecution and the unlearned and unbelievers thinking us to be mad (not angry) if we all happen to be praying in tongues at the same time. And even though I don't know exactly what's being prayed when I'm "rattling off in tongues" sometimes for hours at a time, I do know the results... and they're good.

So my question to you (after the long preamble, lol) is:
Do you use your speaking in tongues a LOT (enough to clearly see what results it produces) or just a little? (to where your thoughts and interpretations of scriptures is still the predominant way you assess the value of what you've received)?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I was not aware that speaking in tongues was something that one really controlled...vs...being consumed by and responsive of under certain conditions/environment.
Also that one may receive additional benefits from such in prayer.

From baptist association to what alliance did you migrate?

Can you detail those points a bit more, please.

I am sure you are aware that the many man made denominations are not Bible supported....?

 

[peldom10]

timed out......

Why did you leave baptist?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Said the guy who then posted this:

1. "No one is ...born again...until...repented, baptized and living a righteous life."

2. So, you claim that no one is born again UNTIL they repent, are baptized and "live a righteous life". So your theology is simply a works based salvation.

3. It is YOUR belief that is NOT supported by Scripture and therefore...wrong

4. Where did yours come from? Certainly not the Bible.

5.So dishonest. The verse begins with "this (literal) water SYMBOLIZES the baptism that now saves us.

Wrong.

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously with such a wimpy answer that doesn't answer anything?

I have numbered each line of my post that you "responded" to with your wrong answer.

So, please correct my error by numbered line, if you can.

I'm not going to let your wrong answer lie. You need to explain WHY you gave my post a "wrong" answer.

Per #1 above, your comment is certainly wrong. The Bible doesn't support any of that.
Per #2 above, my conclusion is certainly right.
Per #3 above, I'm right again.
Per #4, if you do think your claims come from the Bible, prove it with Scripture that says what you claim.
Per #5, I pointed out what 1 Pet 3:21 begins with, which you ALWAYS leave out. So you are dishonest. Explain why.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for again answering openly.

I was a Baptist, oddly enough, before being baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sins and receiving the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues.

I found it odd that "Baptist" doctrine was that baptism was optional. But that wasn't why I left.

They'd taught me enough about God that I learned how to pray (in faith and in the way that leads to God answering). It was the praying (after discovering the non-function of their teachings on salvation) that is part of what brought me in contact with those who told me about baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost with tongues.

Some might think I was a sucker for new doctrine but that's not exactly the case. I was excited to have discovered the word about those topics was neither past tense nor dead, but having come out of deceptive doctrine I would accept nothing without testing and proof.

So once I'd received speaking in tongues (THAT was an experience by faith) I put it to the test.

Did it edify me (build me up) as promised? Yes, but it functions a bit like alcohol. If you just use it a little, you likely won't feel the effects or see the life-changing aspects. So I did it a lot.

Did it help mine infirmities, (Specifically start fixing my weaknesses)? Yes, but again proportionate to amount of use. Seemingly in exponential proportions, to be honest.

Did I find speaking in tongues "prayed for things I know not" and in ways producing better results than my best prayers in English? Yes. I'd learned how to pray and get answers (results) when I prayed in English, But even though I would receive EXACTLY what I prayed for, I often didn't like the consequences that I'd not foreseen.

Did He bring to my remembrance whatever God had said? And show me things to come? Yes, and yes. (Again proportional to use). Allow laying on of hands for healings? (to actually happen)? Yes.

I tested (or am still testing) every promise I could think of (through actual use) to see if the babbly speaking in tongues today produces the results that were promised back then. And in all things I've found the answers to be "yes" and "Amen!". Even the less enjoyable ones like persecution and the unlearned and unbelievers thinking us to be mad (not angry) if we all happen to be praying in tongues at the same time. And even though I don't know exactly what's being prayed when I'm "rattling off in tongues" sometimes for hours at a time, I do know the results... and they're good.

So my question to you (after the long preamble, lol) is:
Do you use your speaking in tongues a LOT (enough to clearly see what results it produces) or just a little? (to where your thoughts and interpretations of scriptures is still the predominant way you assess the value of what you've received)?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I have a question for you.

When you are in a group and speaking or praying in tongues, is there an interpreter present who interprets what was said?

Thanks.

 

[KelbyofGod]

1. I was not aware that speaking in tongues was something that one really controlled...vs...being consumed by and responsive of under certain conditions/environment.
2. Also that one may receive additional benefits from such in prayer.
3. From baptist association to what alliance did you migrate?
4. I am sure you are aware that the many man made denominations are not Bible supported....?

Can you detail those points a bit more, please.

If you'll notice, I numbered your concerns for ease of answering. I hope that's ok. And I'll answer each briefly. More can be said, or asked.

1. If it were not partially under the control of the user, there would be no instructions on HOW to use 'unknown' tongues.
2. When someone is speaking in 'unknown' tongues; they are speaking to God, not man (1 Cor. 14:2); their Spirit is praying (1 Cor. 14:14); and they are giving thanks well [not poorly] (1 Cor. 14:17). Jude 20 commands us to pray in the Holy Ghost to build ourselves up on our most holy faith. And Romans 8:26-27 gives a brief account of what the Spirit is doing as it prays... with God (only) knowing what is the mind of the Spirit (a.k.a what is being prayed).. and it's all positives.
3. I didn't "join" any other particularly named grouping (other than the body of Christ). I don't see a commandment to do so.
4. No group has authority over the Spirit of God (as if they can limit his operation to their own supporters, subjects, or those that they "approve of".). Not denominations. Not "Catholics". NONE. (Acts 10:34-35)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Magenta]

Thanks for your replies. I appreciate it when you grace me with your company. (that's honest, not snarky)

I think you have a circular argument to sort out. Do we get born again because (after) we believe? Or do we
believe because (after) we are born again? Which one comes first? Which leads to the other? (in your thinking)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Thank you once again, Kelby, and I surely appreciate you as well

I am not sure how it is a circular argument. Scripture makes clear that God makes it possible for us to believe through the circumcision of our heart. I don't believe this forces anyone to believe (unlike some Calvinists I have spoken with who say they had no choice). Still, it is my understanding that when one comes to accept the truth Of God's Word, personified in Jesus Christ, that one is born again. When does one have one's heart circumcized? Many have testimonies of God moving in their life, God revealing Himself to them. This can happen even to non-believers. Heart circumcision is a different matter. I wonder if many could say with any certainty when that happened.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I have a question for you.

When you are in a group and speaking or praying in tongues, is there an interpreter present who interprets what was said?

Thanks.

Unless I felt God was leading me to say something for the whole church (a.k.a to be interpreted for the benefit of the group) I only pray at a volume and in a way that is between me and God per 1 Cor. 14:28.

I/we do pray in the spirit, and we pray in the understanding also. I /we do sing in the spirit, and we sing in the understanding also per 1 Cor 14:15.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Magenta]

I do realize that you have not posted Mark 1:4 for us to see what it actually says. And Yes, John DID have authority to do what he was doing because God himself sent John to do it. The fact that it is hard for us to believe/receive doensn't make it any less true.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I did not see Jeff saying John did not have authority to baptize. Only that John was not forgiving sins//did not have authority to forgive sins through water baptism. Did I miss something? Please excuse me if that was in a different post. John was helping people prepare for the coming of their Lord. John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet: “I am a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ ” The long-awaited promised Messiah was about to arrive on the scene and John knew it. Some would say, from before birth.

 

[KelbyofGod]

sorry I'm shortening this to only the portions I'm addressing now. I need to get to some other tasks.

. Scripture makes clear that God makes it possible for us to believe through the circumcision of our heart.

Can you share the scripture that states something along the lines of "Circumcision of the heart is what allows us to believe." ? I looked briefly but couldn't find anything.

Still, it is my understanding that when one comes to accept the truth Of God's Word, personified in Jesus Christ, that one is born again.

It is my firm belief that the word "accept" is too broad in its definition to be useful in this setting. And I don't see it being used in scripture the way people COMMONLY use it today... as if it meant some specific-yet-unstated-in-scripture thing.

Even saying someone "received the word of God" (Jesus IS the word of God) doesn't mean a person is "saved" (another vague word). At least not if "saved" implies/requires that a person has the Holy Ghost.

Why?...Because in Acts 8 the people "received the word of God" (verse 14) And believed (verse 12). And were baptized in Jesus' name (verse 16). And yet could not be considered "saved"...before verse 17...if the Holy Ghost is a necessity. Do you think the Holy Ghost is a salvational necessity? I do. And I think you do, too.

When does one have one's heart circumcized?

That's a topic I'd be willing to discuss more later.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Snacks]

Faith in Christ is all that’s needed.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I did not see Jeff saying John did not have authority to baptize. Only that John was not forgiving sins//did not have authority to forgive sins through water baptism. Did I miss something? Please excuse me if that was in a different post. John was helping people prepare for the coming of their Lord. John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet: “I am a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ ” The long-awaited promised Messiah was about to arrive on the scene and John knew it. Some would say, from before birth.

I'll address this when I get back, but there are two points to consider:

1. I never said John was forgiving sins. I hadn't used the word "forgive" at all.
2. What does it state John was baptizing for?

it might also be beneficial to explore the difference between "forgiveness" and "remission"... As well as "remit" vs. "atone".

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Faith in Christ is all that’s needed.

The apostles had faith in Christ before they had the Holy Ghost. Yet the Holy Ghost is NECESSARY. (sorry if that comes across as blunt or terse)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Magenta]

sorry I'm shortening this to only the portions I'm addressing now. I need to get to some other tasks.
Can you share the scripture that states something along the lines of "Circumcision of the heart is what allows us to believe." ? I looked briefly but couldn't find anything.

If you want Scripture word for word, you may be disappointed. The natural man
cannot accept the things that come from God. God gives us a new heart, replacing
our heart of stone with one of flesh. I think stone heart refers to earthly. In the same
manner Adam and Eve were earthly, Adam being formed from the dust of the ground.

Line by line and precept by precept. What is your understanding of how God changes
people from rejecting Him to being able to believe, have faith, and love Him in return?

 

[Magenta]

I never said John was forgiving sins. I hadn't used the word "forgive" at all.

I didn't say you had, and yet it seemed to be what you were referring to.

Jeff had said, You do realize that John had no authority to forgive sins.

And Yes, John DID have authority to do what he was doing because God himself sent John to do it.

Your response certainly looked like an objection.

 

[Snacks]

The apostles had faith in Christ before they had the Holy Ghost. Yet the Holy Ghost is NECESSARY. (sorry if that comes across as blunt or terse)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

No apologies necessary.
Our salvation is in Jesus Christ.

 

[hornetguy]

Actually one just needs the Holy Spirit...
Getting wet isn't a huge necessity...but it's always a very good idea.

Hmmm.... was that revealed to you prophetically? because your notion does not quite stand up, scripturally.

.... a huge necessity? Paul thought it was, the eunuch thought it was, Peter thought it was for Cornelius' whole household, 3000 men at Pentecost thought it was... and, even JESUS thought it was. He gave us the first example of the baptism where you receive the Holy Spirit...

 

[JeffA]

Believe, repent, and trust in Jesus.
These are the necessary things.
These are ALL private matters.
Prayers are PRIVATE matters.

A deaf-mute hermit living in a desert cave CAN be saved. If he believes, repents, and trusts in Jesus.

 

[JohnDB]

Hmmm.... was that revealed to you prophetically? because your notion does not quite stand up, scripturally.

.... a huge necessity? Paul thought it was, the eunuch thought it was, Peter thought it was for Cornelius' whole household, 3000 men at Pentecost thought it was... and, even JESUS thought it was. He gave us the first example of the baptism where you receive the Holy Spirit...

Because it usually doesn't function the same publicly as it did two THOUSAND years ago.

And seeing the arguments in this thread...nobody seems to agree to the functions of baptism anymore

 

[EloyCraft]

John Baptized because the Holy Spirit wanted to share the John's virtue of righteousness that Jesus wanted to include for the sake of 'all' righteousness. The only way Jesus' Baptism could include the virtue of repentance because John remained pure after his Baptism in the womb. John was already immersed in water. So the pinnacle of righteous possible for someone conceived in sin is offered in the One Baptism. What happened to Jesus immediately after being baptized into John? The Holy Spirit immersed Jesus into John's life of asceticism, prayer and being tempted in the desert. John's baptism offered Jesus the opportunity to know temptation that He couldn't otherwise know. The experience of temptation that comes to us who have inherited death. Satan had no personal access to Jesus if He hadn't been baptized into John. The Samaritans we're Baptised in the form of words that they heard when Jesus stayed with them for a short time. He was on His way to His destruction in Jerusalem.
The Apostles we're receiving the one Baptism into Christ from the time they began following Jesus until their Baptism was confirmed by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. There is one Savior, one Baptism. Those who received John's baptism were prepared to receive the teaching of the Gospel and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Baptism in water is the visible sign that guarantees that God will begin His work in us that enables us to receive the Holy Spirit.

The same process that begins with water ended on the cross for Jesus and ends in tongues of fire at Pentecost for the Apostles, that took three years for the followers of Christ, is the very same Baptism we received. It begins in water and is complete at our own personal Pentecost.