ID with the Father makes no sense. Please detail your thought with scriptures for credibility.
Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection
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ID with the Father makes no sense. Please detail your thought with scriptures for credibility.
Hi Brother Roughsoul.
Well, the verse says, "be baptized and wash away your sins". If Baptism was just a symbol, Apostle Paul would never have said that. We hold that the Blood of Christ washes away our sins IN the Baptismal Fount. That jibes with what St. Paul was saying "be baptized, and wash away your sins".
If you read the Early Church Fathers, it is clear that virtually all of them, including some of whom were disciples of the Apostles, believed in Baptismal Regeneration. Because we cannot literally be washed in Blood, Christ gave us Baptism to signify that Washing.
Here's an article: https://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/06/the-church-fathers-on-baptismal-regeneration/
"II. Church Fathers on Baptism
A. Second Century Fathers
In AD 107, St. Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, wrote a letter to the Church at Ephesus, while being escorted by Roman soldiers to Rome to be martyred. In that letter he writes:
For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water. (Epistle to the Ephesians, 18)
This notion that Christ purified the waters is found in other Church Fathers as well, but this is the earliest record we have of the statement. Christ was not purified by being baptized, since Christ was already pure. Rather, in His baptism, the waters were purified for our sake, that when we are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, we are purified, not by the removal of dirt from the body, but by the forgiveness of sin and the reception of the Life of God within us."I believe Christ was Baptized in order to purify the water. Water purifies us by His Blood, but He Himself had no need of purification. That imo is the meaning of "fulfil all righteousness". Another thing the Church Fathers explain is that Blood and Water flowed out from the pierced Heart of Christ on the Cross, to signify that being washed in the water of Baptism is like being washed in the Blood of Christ. As mentioned earlier, John the Baptist, St. Peter and the Nicene Creed say Baptism "is for the remission of sins", i.e. forgiveness.
God Bless,
N. Xavier.
The blood of Jesus Christ established the umbrella...if you will... for .....grace.......,under which we can repent, be baptized and thereby be cleansed of sin...as scripture says.
Very simple transition from OT to NT.
That is new under the NT vs the OT requiring animal sacrifice.
All of scripture references about baptism support baptism. We can't just select one and do a..............ah ha!..........it doesn't work that way.'
Baptism is Required
Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...
John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10;47 ....Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.
KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.
Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth
.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.
Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.
Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.
Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.
Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bib
His ID with the Father was being crucified ...the ultra sacrifice...need He do more?
Geesscch.
So that is the extent of your response to the question scripture poses?
That is a cop out.
Old Testament washings were almost always for those of the already believing community. They symbolized cleansing from sin and guilt. Whereas sacrifices were to atone for acts of sin, washing or bathing seems generally associated with cleansing from a sinful or otherwise unholy condition. source
According to the Mishnah, the earliest rabbinic code of law, the mikveh had to be a certain size and filled with “living” water - water that had not been transferred or transported in, but which had flowed directly into the bath from a river, spring or rainwater collector.
The FACT that Jesus was The Elect One. The Father chose Him to be the Messiah and to die for everyone.
It is astounding that any Christian would even ask such a question.
Do you really need a specifically worded verse or you won't believe it?
Does the Bible tell you to breathe, or do you wait for someone to tell you?
btw, I didn't "ID with the Father". I said Jesus was identifying with the Father's plan. If you want to quote me, quote me correctly.
Your attempted paraphrase fails.
Why do you continue in your dishonesty by quoting only a part of this verse? The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Spirit, as proven by the account of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11.
The first part of v.21 is "and this (literal) water SYMBOLIZES" the baptism that now saves us.
Dishonesty is disgusting.
FreeGrace2 said:
His water baptism is quite different than believer's baptism.
His water baptism was His identification with His Father's will.
Yes, Jesus did go to the cross. That was the Father's plan. But He was baptized way before He went to the cross; to show everyone that He was doing the Father's plan.
Geesscch.
His water baptism is quite different than believer's baptism.
His water baptism was His identification with His Father's will.
Do you really not understand any of this???
Yes, Jesus did go to the cross. That was the Father's plan. But He was baptized way before He went to the cross; to show everyone that He was doing the Father's plan.
Geesscch.
People seem to be wanting to assign non-literal, symbolic meaning, to verses like Romans 6:4,5 that say you must be baptized in order to be resurrected like Christ was. A literal resurrection is coming and to be in it you need to be baptized like Jesus, like Paul said, like Peter said. Without faith in the process that occurs during water baptism, it's just an act of getting wet. This isn't symbolic, but quite literal.
The Bible has so much more to say about water baptism than getting wet, it's about faith in obeying God's commands, faith that it "saves", faith that it can wash away sins, faith that it will result in being in the first resurrection like 1 Peter 3 says, among others. The arguments against the validity, purposes, and necessity of water baptism are moot and non-existent in the Bible; the Bible fully supports and commands water baptism.
John 3:4,5 KJV
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Now before anyone says John 3:4,5 is about live birth from a mother's embryonic fluid, that Nicodemus made the mistake of thinking that too, saying "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" where Jesus spent the next several verses correcting Nicodemus, trying to teach him spiritual truths, saying, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Jesus was in complete disagreement with Nicodemus. "Water and Spirit" are water baptism and the Holy Spirit. This comes through faith in Christ and obedience to water baptism.
Another reference to water and Spirit:
Mark 16:16 KJV
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
The Bible has so much more to say about water baptism than getting wet, it's about faith in obeying God's commands, faith that it "saves", faith that it can wash away sins, faith that it will result in being in the first resurrection like 1 Peter 3 says, among others. The arguments against the validity, purposes, and necessity of water baptism are moot and non-existent in the Bible; the Bible fully supports and commands water baptism.
John 3:4,5 KJV
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Now before anyone says John 3:4,5 is about live birth from a mother's embryonic fluid, that Nicodemus made the mistake of thinking that too, saying "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" where Jesus spent the next several verses correcting Nicodemus, trying to teach him spiritual truths, saying, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Jesus was in complete disagreement with Nicodemus. "Water and Spirit" are water baptism and the Holy Spirit. This comes through faith in Christ and obedience to water baptism.
Another reference to water and Spirit:
Mark 16:16 KJV
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
The correct answer is that the baptism of Jesus was not symbolic of anything. It was literal and sets the standard and example for all of His followers to literally follow.
Jesus told John He was to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness.
So then the question must be asked, did Jesus fulfill all righteousness, or not?
I say yes. Yes, Jesus fulfilled all righteousness. He went to the cross sinless and paid the sin debt in full.
We do not attain righteousness by being baptized, but by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood.
You are correct in saying "the Holy Spirit was not upon Him."
It is biblically correct that the Holy Spirit was in Him before His water baptism.
Hope this cleared things up and forgive me for not making the distinction in my prior post.
My brain runneth over and my words did not catch-up.
Let's see what the Bible actually says:
Rom 6:4,5
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
See? There is nothing about water baptism here, as Rm claims.
v.4 refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the baptism that now saves us. Our water baptism symbolizes the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
::
People who refuse to accept the difference between "water" and "Spirit" baptism will never understand the Bible.
In Mark 1:8, John the baptizer clearly spoke of the difference; he baptized with water; Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
And we see this difference in Acts 10:
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
In v.44-46 we see that Cornelius' family/friends received the indwelling Holy Spirit. In v.347 Peter acknowledges that fact.
In v.48 they receive water baptism, AFTER they were saved.
Acts 11-
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
These verses clarify and prove that Cornelius and family/friends were saved at Spirit baptism, and Peter even made the point that John the baptizer had made about the difference between his and Jesus' baptism.
v.17 refers the the gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit.
Those who only see water when they come to baptism will fall into false doctrine every time.
It doesn't save. Have you now flip flopped on this?
1 Peter 3 does NOT say this. You just aren't able to discern the difference between water and Holy Spirit baptism.
The arguments against the validity, purposes, and necessity of water baptism are moot and non-existent in the Bible; the Bible fully supports and commands water baptism.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the Bible does command water baptism. But not for ANY of the reasons you think.
The context shows that Nic thought that to be "born again" meant to enter into his mother's womb a second time. So Jesus clarified by telling him, man must be spiritually born after being physically born.
Jesus was NOT telling Nic he needed to find a Baptist church and get dunked.
Except that v.9-20 are NOT found in any of the earliest manuscripts. The verses were all added later. They are NOT inspired.
And no one can prove whoever did write v.16 didn't have baptism of the Holy Spirit in mind.
So even this verse doesn't support your claims. You refuse to accept the difference between water and Spirit baptism. So you aren't even in a position to make ANY comment about baptism at all.
You are just showing your extreme lack of understanding. The issue isn't "literal" or not.
The issue is REAL or RITUAL. That's what you seem unable to comprehend.
All water baptisms are RITUAL. All dry baptisms are REAL. But that probably seems confusing to you.
The Exodus generation was said to be "baptized into Moses and into the sea". This was a REAL baptism and DRY.
How do you explain about 1M people being "baptized into Moses", huh?
And how do you explain about 1M people being "baptised into the sea", since NONE of them got wet?
You can't answer these questions until you accept what 'baptism' really means.
A REAL baptism is a REAL identification. The Exodus generation really identified with Moses and the sea, literally.
A RITUAL baptism is a SYMBOLIC identification. The baptism of Jesus was a RITUAL, and was SYMBOLIC of His being identified with his Father's plan.
If it was righteous to Jesus to do then it is righteous to us. Didn't God say "be holy as I am holy?"
Ephesians 5:1,2
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
I decided to go back and read John 1 like you said to and the Holy Spirit is not mentioned until He descended upon Jesus at His water baptism.
John 1:32-34
32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
In my honest opinion, it seems like much confusion about water baptism in the modern church is due to making water baptism purely symbolic. If someone gets water baptized just believing it's a symbol of something, with no real benefit or purpose, then that's effective to nullify the faith in God's command and possibly make the water baptism impotent.