Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[kaylagrl]

As I see it, potentially the devastating problem with Pentecostalism is the continued perpetual....even NECESSARY "seeking after a sign". In other words, if signs DO NOT manifest, maybe Jesus has left the building, somebody lacks faith, is unsaved etc. Major guilt trip.

BTW.....There is nothing I would like better than to witness sign gifts....and DO them. But rumors of signs with no evidence? Forget it.

But what is evidence? There's the issue. If a church with over 1000 people in it and a testimony isn't evidence, what is?

 

[Amanuensis]

How is it you cannot see the fact that modern tongues is not what the NT is describing, and therefore modern tongues is not what Paul is talking about?

He presented a scripture that corrects your belief that it MUST be a known language on earth.

1 Cor 14:2 For the person who speaks in a tongue is not speaking to people but to God, since no one understands him; he speaks mysteries in the Spirit.

Your response is not addressing this fact that Paul says that it is not speaking to people but to God. Mysteries in the Spirit that no one understands. Not without someone giving the interpretation with the gift of interpretation and not a translation of a known language.

You are insisting on an interpretation (that it must be a known language) even though this verse clearly states that it is not.

So who is forcing a presupposition here? I know you are not prepared to change your mind but I felt it was useful to point out to other readers that this verse cast doubt on your presupposition that it must be a known human language.

 

[Oblio]

I don't seek after signs...I seek after God. He occasionally shows me signs and does wonders. Though I do not call myself Pentecostal, I was saved in a Pentecostal church. If the Lord lays me out and not you, and you feel less than, that's your issue and is no reason to demonize things.
The focus should be on Jesus, not manifestations. Though I've witnessed what happens when He touches people certain ways.
I've never seen a church that I'm impressed with. I'm not impressed with you...I'm not impressed with myself, either. I am impressed with the Lord. I shall continue seeking Him, whether or not He shows me visions, lays me out, or stands me up. Shalom.

 

[Amanuensis]

How is it you cannot see the fact that modern tongues is not what the NT is describing, and therefore modern tongues is not what Paul is talking about?

@DavidTree Gave you the scripture that disproves your theory. Your theory is that because they all heard them in their own language in Acts 2 that all speaking in tongues from then on must be that of speaking in a known language found somewhere on earth.

And yet Paul says to this church at Corinth that when they spoke in tongues they were not speaking to man, but to God and that no man understood them. This contradicts your theory. Now you have the choice of coming up with some method to make this reconcile with your theory, or rework your presupposition, but you don't have the choice of ignoring it. Not and be intellectually honest anyway.

And you cannot say that if there was a translator then they would be speaking to man, because Paul never once mentioned the need for a language translator. He only spoke of a Holy Spirit gift called the gift of interpretation. This would give them the message from the mysteries spoken to God from the tongue. This interpretation is in the moment. Not a word for word translation that can be written down and translated if you can find someone who knows the language. This theory is a radical departure from anything Paul said in 1 Cor 14.

You have no biblical authority to support your theory after reading 1 Cor 14:2 and conceding to the intended meaning of Paul's statements.

To continue to insist that it be a known language after Paul said it was not, is just belligerence and it is not biblical authority.

 

[cv5]

It's like I went to a mountain-top. Then I went back to the valley. I told people about the mountain-top. Some said, "There's no mountain...I've never seen it, so it doesn't exist." Then they go around trying to convince others that there is no mountain.
" 6Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. 7Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…" - Matthew 7:6-8

My friend I never said I was a cessationalist (sorry I misspelled this term on my earlier post). God can enable any Christian to do any sign or any miracle at any time. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that this is the case. Furthermore there is no doubt whatsoever that during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation there will be once again massive signs, wonders and miracles.

On the other hand there are absolutely massive quantities of fake fraudulent bogus "signs" going on today. Nobody is going to tell me that Kenneth Copeland is speaking legitimate tongues. The man is a demonic freak. Same goes for Benny Hinn and his ilk. The list is long.....

 

[cv5]

But what is evidence? There's the issue. If a church with over 1000 people in it and a testimony isn't evidence, what is?

Cell phone video. And a qualified linguist. For starters.

If tongues were on going there should be massive irrefutable evidence. Furthermore I have been involved with hard-core Pentecostals and the "tongues" were undoubtedly infantile bogus babbling. The "slaying in the spirit" was hysterical carnival antics. My take on it was that these people were looking for a spectacular three ring circus show at every worship service. In my opinion such a motivation was all wrong.

In fact it was the wrong crowd that was following Jesus around for a spectacular three ring circus show. What they should've been doing was intently listening to Jesus' teachings and every single word He uttered....

 

[Oblio]

My friend I never said I was a cessationalist (sorry I misspelled this term on my earlier post). God can enable any Christian to do any sign or any miracle at any time. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that this is the case. Furthermore there is no doubt whatsoever that during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation there will be once again massive signs, wonders and miracles.

On the other hand there are absolutely massive quantities of fake fraudulent bogus "signs" going on today. Nobody is going to tell me that Kenneth Copeland is speaking legitimate tongues. The man is a demonic freak. Same goes for Benny Hinn and his ilk. The list is long.....

I don't follow those people...the teaching doesn't agree with me. I just get tired of people labelling me. I was involved with the Vineyard during the '90s. The regional overseer of my church was John Arnott. He released the funds for my sound system. I am intimately acquainted with what happened while I was there.
For 3 1/2 years, I was involved in a genuine move of God. I know there were problems. The leadership I was involved with were Wimber-trained Americans. When the split, which was about animal noises came, it split my life down the middle. Everybody chose sides but me. I hated what happened. I just get tired of whenever I mention that I was in the Vineyard, I hear about Kundalini spirits and animal noises. It was a very precious and special time in my life. I wish people would respect that.
I've seen some videos, from where I don't know, that made me cringe. Stuff happens when God moves, but you shouldn't make a spectacle of it. Responsible leadership won't shut the genuine down, but won't allow excesses either.
Sorry if I was a little hasty in my reaction. I guess I just expect the worst.

 

[kaylagrl]

Cell phone video. And a qualified linguist. For starters.

If tongues were on going there should be massive irrefutable evidence. Furthermore I have been involved with hard-core Pentecostals and the "tongues" were undoubtedly infantile bogus babbling. The "slaying in the spirit" was hysterical carnival antics. My take on it was that these people were looking for a spectacular three ring circus show at every worship service. In my opinion such a motivation was all wrong.

In fact it was the wrong crowd that was following Jesus around for a spectacular three ring circus show. What they should've been doing was intently listening to Jesus' teachings and every single word He uttered....

Yet Jesus did spectacular miracles and was accused of doing them by demonic power. Again, I have shared a solid testimony here, a pastor that heard tongues, was saved and became the pastor of a church I was personally in. There's no circus about that testimony. There was no circus in the church that I attended. If the tongues was nothing but a babbling fool, how did my pastor friend recognize his own language and learn how to be saved? Is every testimony a lie unless you have an "expert" on scene to make it true? Because we all know how good "experts" are. The "experts" have been lying to our faces for two years.

 

[cv5]

Yet Jesus did spectacular miracles and was accused of doing them by demonic power. Again, I have shared a solid testimony here, a pastor that heard tongues, was saved and became the pastor of a church I was personally in. There's no circus about that testimony. There was no circus in the church that I attended. If the tongues was nothing but a babbling fool, how did my pastor friend recognize his own language and learn how to be saved? Is every testimony a lie unless you have an "expert" on scene to make it true? Because we all know how good "experts" are. The "experts" have been lying to our faces for two years.

I have no problem with tongues trust me. It's just that I never heard or seen authentic legitimate tongues in 25 years. Not even close not even a little bit.

The point is legitimate authentic tongues are both miraculous and irrefutable. The stuff that I (up to this point) have heard was neither of those. It was childish incoherent self-deluded babbling. Definitely.

 

[shittim]

If you have never seen His gift in practice, quit going to the wrong places and seek His direction to where they are genuine, or ask Him to gift you, He gives freely.
blessings

 

[Evmur]

"Charismatic craziness" Pentecostalism goes way way back to the very early church. Unfortunately I can't remember now but it's something like second third century A.D. I was thinking Sabellianism but I just can't remember.

As for me I am NOT a secessionist. However I believe that the sign gifts are no longer operating in the world today.

And I will tell you why: Because if authentic sign gifts were functioning today (including tongues), they would be known to be a FACT beyond all shadow of a doubt. Because this is the very purpose of sign gifts to begin with!

I have attended "tongues speaking Pentecostal" Churches a few times, and there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the tongues were BOGUS. Tragically bogus. Self-deluded babbling baby talk is NOT authentic biblical tongues. Same goes for this falling over slaying in the Spirit business. Absolute rubbish. Sideshow carnival antics nothing more.

Furthermore under scrutiny there is no difference whatsoever between the "tongues" spoken by the "prosperity gospel name it and claim it" Satanic freaks like Copeland and that which I heard at the friendly neighborhood Pentecostal assembly. And so-called tongues spoken so casually by members.

Nevertheless there's no doubt that many many Pentecostals are genuinely saved people. But for my part I cannot attend a hard core Pentecostal assembly. Just as I could not attend an amillennialist or replacement theology assembly. Just too messed up.

Not so.

People witnessed the greatest sign miracles of Jesus but remained in unbelief. Paul held the coats of those who stoned Stephen by whom God had done many signs and wonders.

Miracles make the enemies of God hate Him more ... a thing to beware of.

 

[Evmur]

I invite you, as I have invited others, to show your tongues for examination. That's the middle line of understanding. As far as you keep it in the realm of secrecy, and hide behind your traditional interpretation of scripture, we'll never meet.

God does not reveal anything [usually] to unbelief.

 

[Evmur]

And yet, Paul was a highly intellectual person.. studied under the premier teacher of the Jews, Gamaliel.... so being intellectual doesn't prevent someone from being a highly effectual believer... as long as one doesn't try to OVER analyze the simple message Jesus brought us.

Paul counted it all as dung ... we will be wise to do the same.

 

[hornetguy]

God does not reveal anything [usually] to unbelief.

Yeah.... I've heard that as well. Also, "if you prayed to receive the Spirit, and didn't start speaking in tongues, you either (a) didn't pray hard enough, or (b) you weren't 'sincere' enough"
It's a pretty easy fall-back position.
and, if that is the case, then why does Paul say in Corinthians.... "22 So then, tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; "

 

[ResidentAlien]

Not so.

People witnessed the greatest sign miracles of Jesus but remained in unbelief. Paul held the coats of those who stoned Stephen by whom God had done many signs and wonders.

Miracles make the enemies of God hate Him more ... a thing to beware of.

This is only half true.

Those who didn't believe wouldn't have believed no matter what; I believe cessationists are in that camp today. However, I'm not a cessationist; I know Yahweh can perform signs and wonders any time He chooses. But the so-called signs and wonders we see today aren't genuine, I'm sorry.

 

[Evmur]

This is only half true.

Those who didn't believe wouldn't have believed no matter what; I believe cessationists are in that camp today. However, I'm not a cessationist; I know Yahweh can perform signs and wonders any time He chooses. But the so-called signs and wonders we see today aren't genuine, I'm sorry.

You are kidding yourself ... You would have been among those who said "we believe in the Messiah but Jesus is not Him"

you have set yourself up as judge over God's people.

 

[Evmur]

Yeah.... I've heard that as well. Also, "if you prayed to receive the Spirit, and didn't start speaking in tongues, you either (a) didn't pray hard enough, or (b) you weren't 'sincere' enough"
It's a pretty easy fall-back position.
and, if that is the case, then why does Paul say in Corinthians.... "22 So then, tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; "

tongues are a sign to you then.

If you believe in tongues and desire them you shall have them

 

[hornetguy]

tongues are a sign to you then.

If you believe in tongues and desire them you shall have them

That's funny.... I don't consider myself to be an "unbeliever"... and you don't know me well enough to insinuate that...

I believe I stated that in one of my previous comments.... if I am meant to have tongues, I'm sure I will have them. I am trusting the Spirit to lead me where He wills.... as I have been for about 57 years now, since baptism.

 

[DavidTree]

Yeah.... I've heard that as well. Also, "if you prayed to receive the Spirit, and didn't start speaking in tongues, you either (a) didn't pray hard enough, or (b) you weren't 'sincere' enough"
It's a pretty easy fall-back position.
and, if that is the case, then why does Paul say in Corinthians.... "22 So then, tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; "

God searches and knows our hearts. Many people are praying in unbelief, seeking evidence from God and HE will not grant them their desire since it is not in faith according to His word.
The churches today are not the churches that were first born in Acts where the word of the Apostles was received in faith.
Even then there were only a few who would believe because "God added daily to the church such as should be saved."
Which HE has never stopped saving people = daily, amen.

The Holy Spirit does not subject Himself to be placed on trial for religious speculation and argument.
However, when men attack the Word of Truth, the LORD speaks thru us to counter the false accusations just as Stephen did.
Stephen who was Baptized in the Holy Spirit was murdered with the consent of Saul of Tarsus who would later fall on his face before the LORD and then be Baptized in the Holy Spirit and thru this HE became the Apostle Paul and not one aspect apart from BOTH.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was foretold of in Genesis, Isaiah, the Gospel and is a Irrevocable Promise from the Father.

"Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning"

 

[cv5]

Yet Jesus did spectacular miracles and was accused of doing them by demonic power.

This is true. Why? Because the miracles themselves were beyond refutation. Everyone knew that they were legitimate including the Religious leadership.

My problem with tongues would be the rambling babbling jibberish that I along with so many others hear. Its the same garbage that Kenneth Copeland babbles. Such babbling is unquestionably false. Yet there are untold numbers of Pentecostals who support this babbling and say that it is legitimate.

BTW......ecstatic babbling/writhing was a part of ancient pagan false worship systems in Paul's day. In fact it may be this that Paul is speaking of when he is talking about "a tongue" and "tongues". One is real and one is fake. Unfortunately no one really knows how to interpret these passages any longer.