WHO ARE DENIED HEAVEN-ENTRY?

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Lafftur

Lafftur

Senior Member
#41
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
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#41
Runningman said:
Now to address the elephant in the room. If knowing what’s right and wrong can cause us to sin, why should we know anything at all?
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God has a great dilemma. He is Love and the greatest desire of Love is to love and to be loved but, love cannot be created. God could not create us already loving Him because love must have a choice. Otherwise, with no choice it is manipulation and not love at all... just a bunch of robots.

God had to give Adam and Eve a choice.... the choice has always been Life or Death. They had two trees - the Tree of Life or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil which ended in Death.

God wants us to choose Life because we love Him and want to be with Him.

I choose Life! :love:(y)
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

Banned
#42
Aug 2, 2021
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#42
Sudakar said:
Original sin seems to pass the responsibility to Adam!
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YES and NO

YES: Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. Romans 5:14

NO: For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Tim 2:13-14
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

Banned
#43
Aug 2, 2021
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#43
Lafftur said:
Well, let's ponder what we know......:unsure:

We know babies die which is the penalty of sin and they are born under Adam, not Christ. However, there is an age of accountability with God which is 20 years old.

God caused all the Israelites that refused to believe to die in the wilderness and only took Joshua, Caleb and all Israelites that were 19 years old and younger to enter the Promised Land. God also told Moses to only send the men that were 20 years old and older into war.

So, God is holding parents and older family members accountable until the child is 20 years old. We are to train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it.

If a baby dies and has not had a chance to receive Jesus Christ as Savior, Lord and King, then I believe they still have a chance and all people still have a chance. I believe this because Hell is NOT the END, the Lake of Fire is the END and we know Jesus Christ has the keys to Hades/Hell.

Jesus Christ can go down into Hades/Hell and preach the gospel to all lost souls in there.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY ONE that has the keys to Hades/Hell and I believe He can get lost souls out of there, if they repent and call on His Name. They have no rewards in Heaven but, they get to inherit eternal life and the Kingdom of God.

At the Great White Throne of Judgment, Hades/Hell has to give up their dead and all appear before the throne for judgment. If their name is not found in the Book of Life, they are cast into the Lake of Fire.....that is the END.

If Hell is the END, then why not just through every lost soul into the Lake of Fire instead of Hell? :unsure:

Hades/Hell is a place of torment but, I do not believe it is the END.
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REST ASSURED, brought to us by the RISEN Savior = Revelation chapter 1 = HalleluYAH

imho - maybe age of accountability begins around 12/13 - this was for those children who were being taught from the Truth at an early age of course - therefore the age can easily extend beyond up to 20 as you mentioned.
As you know, including children who never reach an understanding due to undeveloped ability which resulted from sickness/poisoning/and other.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#44
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
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#44
Lafftur said:
God has a great dilemma. He is Love and the greatest desire of Love is to love and to be loved but, love cannot be created. God could not create us already loving Him because love must have a choice. Otherwise, with no choice it is manipulation and not love at all... just a bunch of robots.

God had to give Adam and Eve a choice.... the choice has always been Life or Death. They had two trees - the Tree of Life or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil which ended in Death.

God wants us to choose Life because we love Him and want to be with Him.

I choose Life! :love:(y)
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Yes, but ultimately God wanted them to remain without the knowledge of good and evil. Once they obtained that forbidden fruit there were problems. It seems to be consistent with scripture that God wants people to return to a state of no knowledge of good and evil; basically have no awareness of sin. "Become like children."

Since it's impossible to be innocent up until a point, there are laws to keep in order keep evil in check. The sole purpose of Christians then is to be the salt of the earth. Similar to how salt slows or stops the decay of meat, Christians should slow or stop moral and spiritual decay so we don't end up in situations like the world was pre-flood in the days of Noah or Sodom and Gomorrah.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#45
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#45
Adstar said:
Nope it does not say it in that scripture..

(Romans 7:4-6) "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. {5} For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. {6} But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
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This is telling us that God used fleshly commands threwcutting flesh for circumcision to lead people to the law. and the law was in stone of the earth, not of the spirit. It was truth of God as we are told in Matt. 5 telling us that Christ did agreed with what God had told us, but Christ brought in the true law of the spirit, to be obeyed in spirit, not by letter of the law.

An example is given us by the Pharisee who would not help the injured samaritin because the law said not to work on the Sabbath, for he broke the spirit of the law that tells us all law is of love.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#47
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#47
Sudakar said:
1John3:20: "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things".

The moment Adam and Eve chose the forbidden knowledge of good and evil, their heart started to condemn them & they fled from God.

Similarly, won't all humans who were also born without the knowledge of good and evil & have chosen it as they grew up, be condemned by their heart & lose heaven-entry unless they repent?
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Christ is very clear about what we are to do with sin. Christ tells us to turn from sin with repentance. We are to give our sin over to Christ, with confidence in His ability to wipe it out of our lives with forgiveness.

Christ offers to not only forgive our sins, but to live within us as part of us. If we want sin we cannot have Christ, for Christ cannot live with sin. Now we are to walk led by the Lord.

1 John 2: 3-4 "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.".
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#48
Sep 14, 2019
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#48
Blik said:
Christ is very clear about what we are to do with sin. Christ tells us to turn from sin with repentance. We are to give our sin over to Christ, with confidence in His ability to wipe it out of our lives with forgiveness.

Christ offers to not only forgive our sins, but to live within us as part of us. If we want sin we cannot have Christ, for Christ cannot live with sin. Now we are to walk led by the Lord.

1 John 2: 3-4 "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.".
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So what about the sin of every individual choosing the forbidden knowledge of good & evil violating God's command in Genesis2:17?
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#51
Sep 14, 2019
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#51
DavidTree said:
REST ASSURED, brought to us by the RISEN Savior = Revelation chapter 1 = HalleluYAH

imho - maybe age of accountability begins around 12/13 - this was for those children who were being taught from the Truth at an early age of course - therefore the age can easily extend beyond up to 20 as you mentioned.
As you know, including children who never reach an understanding due to undeveloped ability which resulted from sickness/poisoning/and other.
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Jesus said babies believe in Him (Mathew18:6).
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#53
Sep 14, 2019
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#53
DavidTree said:
YES and NO

YES: Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. Romans 5:14

NO: For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Tim 2:13-14
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All individuals are responsible for the original sin of choosing the forbidden knowledge of good & evil. Romans5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned".
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#54
Sep 14, 2019
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#54
Lafftur said:
God has a great dilemma. He is Love and the greatest desire of Love is to love and to be loved but, love cannot be created. God could not create us already loving Him because love must have a choice. Otherwise, with no choice it is manipulation and not love at all... just a bunch of robots.

God had to give Adam and Eve a choice.... the choice has always been Life or Death. They had two trees - the Tree of Life or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil which ended in Death.

God wants us to choose Life because we love Him and want to be with Him.

I choose Life! :love:(y)
Click to expand...
Babies are born without the forbidden knowledge of good & evil.
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#55
Sep 14, 2019
1,336
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#55
Avery said:
Ok well here is something else I question. We do not choose what we are born with. We are not born as though created in the garden by God as was mankind as so innocent we are sinless. We really do not have a choice regarding our fallen state. Don't you know that the NT states that sin entered the world through one man> The world, meaning everyone born into it.

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. 13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.
Romans 5
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Does the Bible say babies are born with the knowledge of good & evil?
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#56
Sep 14, 2019
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#56
Magenta said:
It is you making the erroneous assumptions and false accusations, which as noted, shows us who your father is.
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You can never evade & run away from the question: Do dying babies end up in hell or not?
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#57
Sep 14, 2019
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#57
Avery said:
Do I understand this correctly> It seems like you are saying something along the lines of being delivered from knowledge here. The verses you are referencing refer to being released from the law, which condemns all of mankind.

Please clarify if I do not understand you.
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Knowledge of good & evil comes through the moral law (Romans3:20). So deliverance from the moral law delivers one from the forbidden knowledge of good & evil.
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#58
Sep 14, 2019
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#58
Magenta said:
They are promoting something that is simply not Biblical... at all.

Claiming all newborns have faith in Jesus is patently preposterous.
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You come in circles & haven't quoted a single verse about babies not having faith in Jesus.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#59
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#59
Sudakar said:
So what about the sin of every individual choosing the forbidden knowledge of good & evil violating God's command in Genesis2:17?
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"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:17

Haven't you heard what God did to save us from this death? God gave us Christ, God called it giving blood on the altar. No one is saved except through blood given, and for about 4,ooo years it was only symbolic blood of Christ, it was the sacrificial system. Moses and the saints were saved in sleep until Christ was crucified. Matt 27:52-53.
and Lev. 17:11.
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#60
Sep 14, 2019
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#60
Avery said:
I read your post after I posted. I have never heard anyone saying this verse applies to universal salvation for babies.
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If all babies don't have faith in Jesus, dying babies end up in hell? She doesn't answer this.
 
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