Again To say a person is Justified before God by their believing, or because of their believing, is a flat out denial that one is Justified by Christ
Who Justifieth the Ungodly
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So do you believe Christs death purged everyones sins away ? If you do, please explain why some people are going to die in their sins, if they have been purged away.
Surpassing the truth is a sin issue, and so if Christ died for one, that issue has been dealt with.
For them God has forgiven all their unrighteousness Heb 8:12
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. That word merciful means:
propitious, forgiving, merciful.
If someone Christ died for supress the truth in unrighteousness, God is forgiving and merciful to them for Christs sake.
Too bad you have only a natural understanding of Gods word and the word world, instead of a biblical understanding of it.
You missed it. Those Christ died for are Justified while ungodly, that cant be said about the whole ungodly world of men.
You suggest automatically forgiven...not biblical.
You are miss leading the newbie........ONLY.....providing they have been born again...i.e....repented and been baptized.
Yes, all Christ died for are Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Doesnt matter how many times Rom 4:5 is read, its saying God is justifying the ungodly, and that's what/is was believed.read the verse again, brightfame52.
The verse tells us that faith is not works. That is the point. You are one of those who continues to insist that the inherent faith which God placed within mankind when He created, formed, and made mankind is somehow "works" on the part of mankind when a person believes. That is utter nonsense as is shown in Romans 4:2-5:
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Quit manipulating Scripture to prop up your erroneous dogma!!!
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I am afraid you dont know what you are talking about, nor what I am witnessing to.
Rom 3:24 says it all !2
This Justification in Rom 3:24 God does bestow or impute or charge to, or reckon to, all for whom Christ died, and this without any demand whatsover on their persons, but solely on the Gift Imputed through the Work of Christ, or the Redemption that is in Him Rom 5:18b
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon[By Imputation or Reckoning] all men unto justification of life.
Also Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This being made Righteous is by imputation of what Christ has done, its charged to the Elect's Sinner Account, and God reckons him or her, because of or through Christ, as if they had done everything that the Law of God requires, so in actuality they are these Rom 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Thats because that Obedience that Christ rendered to God's Law, all that was required of the Law of God Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
This has been charged to everyone Christ died for, as a Free Gift, even while they are unbelievers and enemies ! Thats because its all of Grace they have been freely Justified !
This Justification in Rom 3:24 God does bestow or impute or charge to, or reckon to, all for whom Christ died, and this without any demand whatsover on their persons, but solely on the Gift Imputed through the Work of Christ, or the Redemption that is in Him Rom 5:18b
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon[By Imputation or Reckoning] all men unto justification of life.
Also Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This being made Righteous is by imputation of what Christ has done, its charged to the Elect's Sinner Account, and God reckons him or her, because of or through Christ, as if they had done everything that the Law of God requires, so in actuality they are these Rom 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Thats because that Obedience that Christ rendered to God's Law, all that was required of the Law of God Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
This has been charged to everyone Christ died for, as a Free Gift, even while they are unbelievers and enemies ! Thats because its all of Grace they have been freely Justified !
Justification of Life !
Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Even so by the Righteousness OF ONE NOT TWO, BUT ONE, the Free Gift CAME UPON, not made available, not offered to, BUT CAME UPON all men to JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE !
Now we know the false antichrist followers tell us that this means all men without exception have Justification of Life, but thats a lie, the verse does not say that and surely cannot begin to mean that, those who believe that are wifully ignorant to what Justification of Life means, and what is meant by it coming upon all for whom it did come upon !
First the words came upon are not in the orginal but are translated from the preposition eis which means:
eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.
It denotes a result, that being the result of either, as in the case of the one offence of Adam the result being " judgment came upon all men to condemnation"
Folk that was the result and purpose of God in effect, and it had nothing to do with the all men to whom Judgment and Condemnation came upon doing anything, or not doing anything, their individual acts or non acts are irrelevant !
Now with the same line of reasoning Justification of Life came upon all men as a result of The Righteousness of ONE Jesus Christ, and it likewise had nothing to do with the all men to whom Justifcation came upon, their individual acts or non acts are not relevant to the result !
Now the result of the former , that is what came upon them was Judgment to condemnation :
And the result of the Latter, that is what came upon them was Justification of Life, which means:
acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.
the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
And this acquittal, pronouncing Righteous brings with it an added benefit which is Life !
Now, for Rom 5:18 to be taught as meaning all men without exception have come upon them Justification of Life, by the One Act of Righteousness of Jesus Christ is to say all men without exception are before God acquitted of all guilt and pronounced by Him as Righteous !
And we know that is not True because that would lead to the false teaching of Universalism and it would deny the fact that scripture teaches that some men are condemned already Jn 3:18 and are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36 with the promise of not seeing Life ! Which contradicts having had Justification of Life come upon them as those in Rom 5:18 did because of the Righteousness of One !
Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Even so by the Righteousness OF ONE NOT TWO, BUT ONE, the Free Gift CAME UPON, not made available, not offered to, BUT CAME UPON all men to JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE !
Now we know the false antichrist followers tell us that this means all men without exception have Justification of Life, but thats a lie, the verse does not say that and surely cannot begin to mean that, those who believe that are wifully ignorant to what Justification of Life means, and what is meant by it coming upon all for whom it did come upon !
First the words came upon are not in the orginal but are translated from the preposition eis which means:
eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.
It denotes a result, that being the result of either, as in the case of the one offence of Adam the result being " judgment came upon all men to condemnation"
Folk that was the result and purpose of God in effect, and it had nothing to do with the all men to whom Judgment and Condemnation came upon doing anything, or not doing anything, their individual acts or non acts are irrelevant !
Now with the same line of reasoning Justification of Life came upon all men as a result of The Righteousness of ONE Jesus Christ, and it likewise had nothing to do with the all men to whom Justifcation came upon, their individual acts or non acts are not relevant to the result !
Now the result of the former , that is what came upon them was Judgment to condemnation :
And the result of the Latter, that is what came upon them was Justification of Life, which means:
acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.
the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
And this acquittal, pronouncing Righteous brings with it an added benefit which is Life !
Now, for Rom 5:18 to be taught as meaning all men without exception have come upon them Justification of Life, by the One Act of Righteousness of Jesus Christ is to say all men without exception are before God acquitted of all guilt and pronounced by Him as Righteous !
And we know that is not True because that would lead to the false teaching of Universalism and it would deny the fact that scripture teaches that some men are condemned already Jn 3:18 and are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36 with the promise of not seeing Life ! Which contradicts having had Justification of Life come upon them as those in Rom 5:18 did because of the Righteousness of One !
Justification of Life ! 2
This Justification of Life through the Lord Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Divine Promise to Israel, God's Elect Isa 45:25
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
The all men that Justification of Life came upon in Rom 5:18 are the All Men that constitute all the Seed of Israel [Christ] the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
There can be no Justification of Life unto anyone apart from the Divine Promise of Isa 45:25, if it is, its outside of the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore worthless !
Some may argue and say that Isa 45:25 is speaking only of ethnic jews, but its not, its speaking of both ethnic jews and ethnic Gentiles who are the Israel of God. See the Mystery has always been that elect Gentiles are also Israel, an Israel that has nothing to do with ethnicity ! It only had to be that they all belonged to a certain Seed , and not a physical seed ! 9
This Justification of Life through the Lord Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Divine Promise to Israel, God's Elect Isa 45:25
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
The all men that Justification of Life came upon in Rom 5:18 are the All Men that constitute all the Seed of Israel [Christ] the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
There can be no Justification of Life unto anyone apart from the Divine Promise of Isa 45:25, if it is, its outside of the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore worthless !
Some may argue and say that Isa 45:25 is speaking only of ethnic jews, but its not, its speaking of both ethnic jews and ethnic Gentiles who are the Israel of God. See the Mystery has always been that elect Gentiles are also Israel, an Israel that has nothing to do with ethnicity ! It only had to be that they all belonged to a certain Seed , and not a physical seed ! 9
More on Rom 4:5 Ungodly Justified !
Rom 4:5
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Folks we do not believe in Justification by Faith unless we understand that we were Justified first by God while in a ungodly and faithless state !
The statement "him that justifieth the ungodly" is true only if He does Justify them while being Ungodly, being ungodly as in the present tense, while presently being in a state of Ungodliness. The scripture proves that God's Elect, those Christ died for Rom 8:33-34, that while in an active state of ungodliness, that at the same time they were in a state of passive Justification of Life Rom 5:18b
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The reason for this is because all for whom He died, has had a Robe of Righteousness imputed to them, Fod God hath made Him be unto them 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
And again, this while we are being in ourselves ungodly and enemies Rom 5:10, and such scripture as these establish the fact that God's Elect whom Christ died are Justified before God prior, anterior to Faith !
Rom 4:5
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Folks we do not believe in Justification by Faith unless we understand that we were Justified first by God while in a ungodly and faithless state !
The statement "him that justifieth the ungodly" is true only if He does Justify them while being Ungodly, being ungodly as in the present tense, while presently being in a state of Ungodliness. The scripture proves that God's Elect, those Christ died for Rom 8:33-34, that while in an active state of ungodliness, that at the same time they were in a state of passive Justification of Life Rom 5:18b
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The reason for this is because all for whom He died, has had a Robe of Righteousness imputed to them, Fod God hath made Him be unto them 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
And again, this while we are being in ourselves ungodly and enemies Rom 5:10, and such scripture as these establish the fact that God's Elect whom Christ died are Justified before God prior, anterior to Faith !
More on Rom 4:5 Ungodly Justified !
If Justified before Faith, we are [if Christ died for us] Justified before our existence ! Now if scripture gives evidence of God's Elect being Justified before God before their Faith and even while being ungodly, being premised solely on the imputed righteousness of their Surety, then its very plausible, as a consequence of that same Imputed Righteousness that the Elect are Justified in the Sight of God before their actual [in time] existence, lest we conclude that the Surety Righteousness of Christ did not have that type of Merit and Excellence and transcendence in and of itself to Justify, but that it did need ones act of Faith to give it that Virtue !
If Justified before Faith, we are [if Christ died for us] Justified before our existence ! Now if scripture gives evidence of God's Elect being Justified before God before their Faith and even while being ungodly, being premised solely on the imputed righteousness of their Surety, then its very plausible, as a consequence of that same Imputed Righteousness that the Elect are Justified in the Sight of God before their actual [in time] existence, lest we conclude that the Surety Righteousness of Christ did not have that type of Merit and Excellence and transcendence in and of itself to Justify, but that it did need ones act of Faith to give it that Virtue !
More manipulation of the discussion at hand because you reject what is written in Scripture.
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
God says righteousness is imputed if we believe (Rom 4:24) and God says we are justified by faith (Rom 5:1).
When I state exactly what is written in Scripture, that is not me saying "a person is Justified before God by their believing, or because of their believing".
That is me telling you what is written in Scripture ... and it is you manipulating/misinterpreting what is written. You misinterpret what is submitted in the discussion in the same manner you misinterpret Scripture.
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Sin is not the issue. God made provision for the sin of mankind before the foundation of the world.
When mankind rejects God's provision, mankind reaps the consequence of their decision ... just as is stated in Romans 1:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain, hinder] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
We have gone over this before, brightfame52. Mankind rejects God, wants to go his or her own way, and God allows him or her to do that.
Now look at what God says in Romans 1:16-17
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Those who believe the gospel of Christ do not reject and, according to Rom 1:16, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.
For you to manipulate what is written in Scripture into "a person is Justified before God by their believing" is just you suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18).
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Nope. Read what God says about those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are under God's wrath ... even though the Lord Jesus Christ has dealt with the sin issue
1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.
Again, it is not a sin issue. God has dealt with the sin issue.
It's a "faith" issue. Those who are under God's wrath place their faith in something other than the truth of God's Word.
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