Do you believe in Scripture all the times the word all is used it means exactly all all the time? Without reading the context?
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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By what you post. That would be the only way. Jesus Christ died for everyone. If His death saves, then everyone is saved. That is universalism.
We don't need to be so sensitive about this. Those who have specific views, by definition, means they MUST BE what others of that specific view is. I wasn't telling you what you must do, but rather, what your views align with.
I didn't say it did. The verse clearly shows that Jesus, as the Lamb of God, "takes away the sins of the world".
But Titus 2:11 DOES say that exactly. " For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to everyone."
Now, can you show me anywhere in that context that John the baptizer used the word "world" to ONLY mean "world of the elect", like so many of the calvinists do.
OK, how many verses did I cite? I was counting fast.
However, every showed either that He DID die for everyone, or that He is the Savior of everyone (world).
Are you just wanting to play word games?
If you really take your calvinism seriously, it would be very reasonable that you would have at least one verse to support that you claim.
Do you have such a verse about Jesus dying for LESS than "all"? That would be enough evidence.
OK, since you believe that, please provide at least one verse that clearly indicates that what "world" means by the author of the verse.
Of course I know that. However, unless you have at least 1 verse that supports your claim, there is no reason to make that leap into the future. The world to come is the eternal state. So, either prove your claim with a verse, or admit you don't.
No, as I already pointed out, unless the word "all" is accompanied by further descriptions that limit the scope of "all", then it DOES mean exactly what "all" means. The whole, inclusive, everyone, every body.
So, in ALL the verses that say Christ died for all (pas), please show in their respective contexts how "all" was modified to mean "LESS than everyone".
Thank you. I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.
Many dishonest/or at least misleading statements in the above post such a liberal...
If you are an honest poster, and really believe this, please point out at least some of the "many dishonest" or at least misleading statements you are claiming I have made.
I would appreciate it.
Too many posters make these kind of drive-by charges and NEVER back them up with evidence. Are you able to?
Or are you going to be offended that I would dare to challenge your charge?
As for being "such a liberal", get real. I challenge you to find any evidence of that in any of my posts. Are you able to?
Or, like many others, do you just like to throw claims around?
I can back up what I post, from Scripture. I learned the Berean study method (Acts 17:11) and it has served me very well. But I have found that my study methods seem to really bug both calvinists and arminians, when I point out their discrepancies with Scripture.
First, guess what, you don't get to set rules or establish criteria - I post as I choose to.
Second, God wrote the Bible. Everything in it originated from Him not the individual writers.
Third, what do you think it means ?
Fourth, its meaning, and its singular point, was that God's kingdom is not of this world. Why is that difficult for you to understand?
[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
[1Jo 2:15-17 KJV]
15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
[Jhn 8:23 KJV]
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
[Mat 25:34 KJV] 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
And if I do then you will admit your understanding is wrong?
[Mat 25:31-34 KJV]
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[1Jo 2:15-17 KJV]
15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
That's NOT "setting rules or establishing criteria". Do you, or do you NOT, have clear evidence from Scripture for your beliefs?
FreeGrace2 said:
Of course I know that. However, unless you have at least 1 verse that supports your claim, there is no reason to make that leap into the future. The world to come is the eternal state. So, either prove your claim with a verse, or admit you don't
I have no idea what the 3 passages you quoted have to do with anything. You didn't include any explanation for them.
What is clear is that NONE of the verses that I provided showing that Jesus is the Savior of THE WORLD, refer to the "world to come" as you are claiming.
So, do you have any verses?
btw, regarding the "world to come", it should be obvious even to any baby believer that Jesus IS the savior of all believers.
What I would like to see is evidence that the verses I have shared refer to "the world to come", and not the human race.
Well, this kind of response only showcases your inability to find such a verse. I am asking for evidence for your beliefs.
That's NOT "setting rules or establishing criteria". Do you, or do you NOT, have clear evidence from Scripture for your beliefs?
Sure. And you choose NOT to provide verses, because YOU KNOW you don't have any.
This goes without saying.
I've been asking YOU for evidence for your claims.
I don't have any problem with that. And that is not the subject here.
FreeGrace2 said:
Of course I know that. However, unless you have at least 1 verse that supports your claim, there is no reason to make that leap into the future. The world to come is the eternal state. So, either prove your claim with a verse, or admit you don't
Absolutely!! If someone can provide a verse that plainly and clearly communicates a principle that refutes or contradicts my beliefs, I will GLADLY repent.
I have no idea what the 3 passages you quoted have to do with anything. You didn't include any explanation for them.
What is clear is that NONE of the verses that I provided showing that Jesus is the Savior of THE WORLD, refer to the "world to come" as you are claiming.
So, do you have any verses?
btw, regarding the "world to come", it should be obvious even to any baby believer that Jesus IS the savior of all believers.
What I would like to see is evidence that the verses I have shared refer to "the world to come", and not the human race.
If i did this as i had hoped my words of reply are in the green
TULIP can only be supported by MISREPRESENTING Scripture. And that is exactly what we find in the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Westminster Confession: X. Of Effectual Calling
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,a by his Word and Spirit,b out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;c enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God;d taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;e renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,f and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;g yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.h
a. Rom 8:30; 11:7; Eph 1:10-11. • b. 2 Cor 3:3, 6; 2 Thes 2:13-14. • c. Rom 8:2; Eph 2:1-5; 2 Tim 1:9-10. • d. Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 2:10, 12; Eph 1:17-18. • e. Ezek 36:26. • f. Deut 30:6; Ezek 11:19; 36:27; Phil 2:13. • g. John 6:44-45; Eph 1:19. • h. Psa 110:3; Song of Songs 1:4; John 6:37; Rom 6:16-18.
II. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man;a who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,b he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.c
a. Rom 9:11; Eph 2:4-5, 8-9; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 3:4-5. • b. Rom 8:7; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:5. • c. Ezek 36:27; John 5:25; 6:37.
Let's take just one clause and just one verse as an example: "All those whom God hath predestinated unto life" (Rom 8:30) That should really be Rom 8:29 or both 8:29&30. Now does Romans 8:29 tell us that God has predestined some to "life" (eternal life) or does it tell us that God has predestined some "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (to perfectly resemble His Son)?
Here is what it says: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)
What can we conclude from this verse?
1. Predestination is according to God's foreknowledge.
2. Predestination is for those who believe "to be conformed to the image of His Son".
3. Christ regards the sons [children] of God as His "brethren".
4. He must be pre-eminent ("firstborn") among His "many" brethren, since He is the "only begotten Son of God".
5. The Church will be perfected and glorified in order to fulfil this plan (see Rom 8:30) and resemble Christ perfectly for all eternity.
6. Therefore this is not predestination in order to receive "eternal life" but to complete salvation.
But why is that? Because eternal life is offered as a FREE GIFT to "whosoever" (anyone and everyone) believes on the Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:15-17 and many other Scriptures). One could take apart the idea of "effectual calling" step by step and discover that it is purely man-made. And thus all of Five Point Calvinism will fall like dominoes. Will this convert the Calvinists? Not in the least. Commitment to errors is usually stronger than commitment to the truth.
Unfortunately, the formatting got messed up and I'm unable to respond to your green words.
The world in John 3:16 refers to all people not the system. Christ was given to save mankind.
You forgot to include the following verses that complete the doctrine Paul was teaching. They seem to invalidate your conclusion
[Rom 8:30, 32-35 KJV] called
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. ...
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
No Scripture? I have Scripture. Should we believe you or God?
Revelation 20:13 (NKJV)
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Thanks for saying I can NEVER be unsaved! Wish I could say the same for OSASers!
Everlasting-Grace said:
If you think you will be saved because you do works.
Satan has deceived you..
I already told you whoever has faith WILL do works. So every time you keep trying to throw that passage in my face, You just keep making yourself look bad.
I love it how you refuse to look at the passages I have shown you. yet attack me as being satanic. then cry your the one being attacked.
A typical pharisee.
Yes, Satan does deceive "the whole world", as the Bible states. And He deceives believers along with unbelievers.
Satan would be thrilled if EVERY believer thought their eternal destiny was based on works.
Revelation 20:13 (NKJV)
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. [/QUOTE]
Since the GWT judgment is a judgment solely of UNBELIEVERS, since all believers will have already been resurrected into glorified bodies about 1,000 years prior, there is no way any believer would be at the GWT for judgment.
So, what are all the unbelievers being judged for? That's the question.
Jesus gave us the answer in the gospels when He said this:
Matt 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matt 11:22 - But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Also recorded in Luke 10:12 and 14.
So, the judgment at the GWT is to determine the degree of tolerance IN the lake of fire.
iow, it won't be the same amount of torment for everyone. For those who were more evil it will be less tolerable, and for those who were less evil, it will be more tolerable.
If you think you will be saved because you do works.
Satan has deceived you..
I already told you whoever has faith WILL do works. So every time you keep trying to throw that passage in my face, You just keep making yourself look bad.
I love it how you refuse to look at the passages I have shown you. yet attack me as being satanic. then cry your the one being attacked.
A typical pharisee.
It appears from your question to EG that you believe the following verse refers to being judged on works for whether one will go to heaven or to the lake of fire.
Yes, Satan does deceive "the whole world", as the Bible states. And He deceives believers along with unbelievers.
Satan would be thrilled if EVERY believer thought their eternal destiny was based on works.
Revelation 20:13 (NKJV)
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. [/QUOTE]
Since the GWT judgment is a judgment solely of UNBELIEVERS, since all believers will have already been resurrected into glorified bodies about 1,000 years prior, there is no way any believer would be at the GWT for judgment.
So, what are all the unbelievers being judged for? That's the question.
Jesus gave us the answer in the gospels when He said this:
Matt 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matt 11:22 - But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Also recorded in Luke 10:12 and 14.
So, the judgment at the GWT is to determine the degree of tolerance IN the lake of fire.
iow, it won't be the same amount of torment for everyone. For those who were more evil it will be less tolerable, and for those who were less evil, it will be more tolerable.
Hm? In your ost 3,495 you said this:
"No Scripture? I have Scripture. Should we believe you or God?"
Well, let's apply that to what Jesus, who is God, said about eternal security.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Most Arminians (anti-eternal security types) will point to v.27 about following Jesus as to whom Jesus is referring in v.28. But there is nothing in v.27 that amounts to a condition for receiving eternal life. Jesus simply described what His sheep (believers) do or should do. Nothing more, so please don't embarrass yourself by trying that ploy here.
So, who are the "they' in v.28? Believers. Jesus made that clear back in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
The verb tense for "believes" and "has eternal life" are present tense. What this means is that at the very MOMENT one believes savingly in Jesus Christ as Savior, they POSSESS eternal life. So eternal security begins the MOMENT one believes.
Back to 10:28, Jesus tells us that He is the Giver of the free gift of eternal life. And the result follows: and they shall never perish.
So, Db, who ya gonna believe? Jesus, the Son of God, or whoever taught you your anti-eternal security stuff?
The MOMENT a person believes in Jesus Christ as Savior, they POSSESS eternal life (John 5:24) and from that MOMENT on, they shall NEVER PERISH (10:28).
yes, and what happened to every one of them?
in fact lets look at the whole passage. not just thew verse you posted.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
if you look you notice a few things
1. Death and hades were delivered. (a believer is not delivered to Jesus, he is ressurected by Jesus)
2. Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
everyone here is judged and found guilty and suffer their eternal fate they have earned.
They are judged according to their works. because they have rejected the one that that could save them. the cross. At the end of the judgment they are found wanting.
why?
because their works could not save them.
not sure what this has to do with my post.
You can't say anything about anyone. Nor can you hurt anyone. Because each will stand before God based on what they believe not what they were taught.
I also never said you can;t be unsaved, I do not even know if your saved, Thats between you or God., All I can do is judge your gospel and whether I agree or not. I can't judge you
like I said. I do not fear you.....
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
you can;t touch me, You can belittle me, Falsly accuse me, Attack me, even kill me, You can't touch my eternity.