Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

hornetguy · Apr 15, 2022

I think you might have it backward.... I think MOST times when baptism is mentioned, it is the water baptism that symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus... this is what the apostles taught, and practiced. If the ones closest to Jesus did that, then who are we to "decide" that some type of "spiritual only baptism" is acceptable?
I believe that we are told to be baptized (immersed) in water, and we receive the Spirit... which makes it also the spiritual baptism.
If water baptism is not that important, then why was Jesus' last instruction to go, preach the gospel, and baptize?

JeffA · Apr 15, 2022

DavidTree said:

1 Cor ch14 covers all we need to know of tongues beginning with the fact that tongues is not a known human language.

i love how the Holy Spirit corrects the misuse of chapter 13 which ends with "now these three remain....", by immediately correcting that error in the very next sentence, 1 Cor 14:1, which is a continuation of the same subject matter at hand.

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him;
he utters mysteries in the Spirit. "

How Beautiful is that unto God!!!

That's why it is a Private matter.

JeffA · Apr 15, 2022

hornetguy said:

(In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) not water.

JeffA · Apr 15, 2022

hornetguy said:

So, if you believe that physical immersion in water is a requirement for salvation, I won't try to change your mind.
Only Baptists go to heaven, then?

DavidTree · Apr 15, 2022

JeffA said:

Amen, unless someone is there to interpret.

i do not agree with the misuse of the Gift as some churches do.

i agree with the Three Witnesses to this: the Word, the Holy Spirit and the Apostle Paul.

For i am not ashamed of the Gospel which is His virgin birth, Elohim Son/Word coming in the flesh, His sinless Life, His Way, His Truth, His Life, His Sacrifice dying on the Cross, His Resurrection, His Ascension to the Right Hand of God and
the Elohim Holy Spirit Coming on Pentecost = the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The FULL Gospel as spelled out to us in Genesis, confirmed and Signed by God in Exodus 3:15 and was Performed to Perfection by the Will of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit at His Coming and will be completed at His Second Coming - amen

peldom10 · Apr 15, 2022

JeffA said:

God can give special dispensation as He wishes.
That may not change His commandments.
Baptism is required.

I do not find a specific timed condition when the Holy Spirit may be infused to a person.
Certainly repentance had to have occurred.

peldom10 · Apr 15, 2022

JeffA said:

NO...most baptist do not believe baptism is required...even in the face of specific scriptures;

Be informed;

Baptism is Required

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

I advise to stop following..... new age religion teaching..... and stick with the Bible. 1611 KJV suggested

hornetguy · Apr 15, 2022

JeffA said:

I believe we were told to be baptized. I believe it is our part of the salvation experience, very much like circumcision was the Jew's part of their "salvation"... would you have called circumcision a "requirement" for being an accepted Jew?
We are saved by grace, and we are to be baptized.... it should be our first act of obedience to Jesus, and it is how we receive the gift of the Spirit. We were told to do it.
As far as "who goes to heaven".... that is WAY above my pay grade. God will save who He will... my goal is to follow Jesus and his teachings to the best of my ability, without trying to second-guess the "value" of anything.

and, you have it wrong.... only the "church of Christers" are going to heaven

at least that's what I've heard all my life.

My belief is that ALL of us... Baptists, Church of Christers, Methodists, Pentecostals.... are going to be surprised who they see in Heaven for eternity...

Oblio · Apr 15, 2022

I don't think it matters where one is in the body, to not be water-baptized is to not do what scripture clearly puts forth!

peldom10 · Apr 15, 2022

hornetguy said:

I believe we were told to be baptized. I believe it is our part of the salvation experience, very much like circumcision was the Jew's part of their "salvation"... would you have called circumcision a "requirement" for being an accepted Jew?
We are saved by grace, and we are to be baptized.... it should be our first act of obedience to Jesus, and it is how we receive the gift of the Spirit. We were told to do it.
As far as "who goes to heaven".... that is WAY above my pay grade. God will save who He will... my goal is to follow Jesus and his teachings to the best of my ability, without trying to second-guess the "value" of anything.

and, you have it wrong.... only the "church of Christers" are going to heaven

at least that's what I've heard all my life.

My belief is that ALL of us... Baptists, Church of Christers, Methodists, Pentecostals.... are going to be surprised who they see in Heaven for eternity...

Amen.

(one note for the newby........repentance ......first)

mustaphadrink · Apr 15, 2022

JTB said:

I hope I am not being arrogant but that is rather a silly comment.

mustaphadrink · Apr 15, 2022

ResidentAlien said:

At the time I was not too concerned about pagans being deceived.

mustaphadrink · Apr 15, 2022

ChristianTonyB said:

???????????????????????????/

Oblio · Apr 15, 2022

How about another drink?"

Amanuensis · Apr 15, 2022

hornetguy said:

I agree in principle to what you are saying. We should not be inappropriately focusing on the wrong thing or distorting the importance of one thing over another in some sort of extremism. But let us never say that Paul was teaching that a gift of the Holy Spirit was not to be desired, not worth our attention, or to be dismissed out of hand like something we would rather not even mess with. That is the other extreme. Let us discover the intended message, and the purpose and plan of God for giving these gifts, ask for and received them by faith and use them for the intent and purpose which God has ordained in giving them to the church.

I believe that Paul was encouraging them to seek spiritual gifts and at the same time correcting their misuses. This is what we should do as well. Let us correct over emphasizing while not ending up guilty of dismissing and out right forbidding which is what many also do.

Oblio · Apr 15, 2022

I'd go as far as to say that we need the word and Spirit in balance...in my opinion, or course!
Two rails that keep the train on track.

Amanuensis · Apr 15, 2022

peldom10 said:

I don't know what you are saying.

Everything we say is an opinion. Even when we interpret scripture we are giving an opinion as to why we think it is the right interpretation. An opinion can be right. Having one is not wrong.

I have no idea what leftist means in this conversation. I don't really care to get into it. My main point was that no one was saying you must accept my opinion because I said so. The purpose of my response to you was to help us discuss the text in a way that explains each other's opinion as to what it means and why.

ResidentAlien · Apr 15, 2022

Let me pose a question. Let's take a more recent example like Bernie Madoff. Madoff was a convicted liar, swindler and conman. Now let's suppose he had started a Ponzi scheme school based on his methods. Would it be ethical to promote him as a great entrepreneur and carry on his legacy by teaching his methods to others and treating him as a model citizen?

If this wouldn't be ethical why is it acceptable to treat Pentecostalism as valid and true? You can skirt it all you want but the fact remains the Assemblies of God itself, one of the biggest Pentecostal organizations there is, traces the genesis of the movement to 1901 and Charles Fox Parham—a know liar and religious conman. And the company he kept wasn't any better.

Some say Pentecostalism's true roots are in the day of Pentecost. Okay, just for fun let's consider this. If this is true where are the Pentecostal churches before 1901? There are many groups before that who taught the baptism in the Holy Spirit, tongues, miracles, etc; but these are groups that today Pentecostals would call cults or false religions. If they're cults and false religions what does that make Pentecostalism?

Oblio · Apr 15, 2022

Cheese!

Amanuensis · Apr 15, 2022

ResidentAlien said:

Many preachers have fallen into sin. That does not mean that they were not at one time preaching the truth nor does it mean that people who heard them and put faith in the scriptures need to re-evaluate their salvation of the reality of the things they have experienced in God as a result of finding out that the preacher they first heard turned out to be a sad story.

Your logic is faulty. No one agrees with it.

The word of God stands on it's own. It does not change if a preacher falls. The Assemblies of God statements of fundamental truths, and their position papers on various subjects that you disagree with can be discussed using the rules of hermeneutics and do not require any history of the Pentecostalism. What do the scriptures say and what do they mean, and go with that.
https://ag.org/beliefs/statement-of-fundamental-truths

Just to answer your logic that you are trying to push, I would ask "what if a movement started off with some wrong ideas?' Would they not want to go to the scriptures and find the right interpretation and stand on that? The AG stands by the interpretation they take on these scriptures and topics and if you want to find fault with them you will have to address those texts and explain why they are not interpreting them correctly. Then one can look at your hermeneutic and compare it to theirs and decide who is doing the best job of discovering authorial intent.

If you can't win the debate that way and have to go back into the history and find a shady character you don't like, then people are just looking at you and thinking. "well I guess he folded on discussing proper interpretation of text and is now hoping he can make us not notice that." But we are not moved. We stick to the scripture and preach the Full Gospel of God which includes the signs and wonders that confirm the Word.

If you are not seeing signs and wonders confirming the Gospel which you preach, it could be that you are not preaching. You have to Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to see the signs and wonders confirm the word and you have to be preaching the true Gospel, The FULL GOSPEL.

"And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you . . . Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."
Luke 10:8-9, 19-20, KJV

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."
John 14:12-14, KJV

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Mark 16:17-18, KJV

Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

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