Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

[JAPOV]

https://www.soundclick.com/music/songInfo.cfm?songID=14253600

Nothing changes, nothing dies, prophecy is all you have to justify
God's will in a world that will pass you by

There's nothing bigger than life, there's nothing new under the sun
Nothing takes the place of simply knowing right from wrong
Don't take for granted all you've learned and all you know

Cause life's too short to waste your days looking for something better
Hang on tight to your faith, you can't change the weather
Count your blessings, you're not alone, we're in this together friend
As long as sun is shining life goes on
You didn't wanna' miss me when I'm gone

Liars lie, believers pray, the meek inherit what God promised all to be
Try to change the world, you'll find you can't change me
Look around, see the play, a million actors playing parts of yesterday
Stakes are higher but the plot is still the same

There's nothing bigger than life...

 

[peldom10]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, there's more here to agree with. 1 Thess 4 is the "classic rapture" passage, yet has NO MENTION of a glorified trip to heaven. That is significant.

Right. Because there is no heaven reference, or trip up to heaven. Which is my point.

So, you are not a pretribber?

My apologies then.

Pre-tribulation is clearly presented in scriptures. Yes, if that is your question, it is my belief.

 

[peldom10]

Then why did the Bible say so in Rev 21:2 and 21:9-10? It’s not written in cryptic codes, the bride is positively identified as New Jerusalem. And Jesus is no longer a man in there, but the temple and it’s light (Rev. 21:23-24). This marriage is symbolic, you have to take it as whatever the Bible says it is, not what you think it means.

...symbolic as in marriage...both become one....

 

[Goliath]

Why don’t you go read Rev. 20 first? The first resurrection takes place at the beginning of the millennial reign, the second at the end of it. Here’s the kicker - Both are post-trib.

Or to be more exact...the first resurrection takes place during the Great Tribulation.

And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants and also their brethren, who were to be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Revelation 6:9-11)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Or to be more exact...the first resurrection takes place during the Great Tribulation.

And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants and also their brethren, who were to be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Revelation 6:9-11)

"Until their fellow servants and also their brethren, who were to be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." That's the Great Multitude in white robes in the next seal. Throughout the entire book of Revelation, these saints were "to be killed" - up until in Rev. 20:4 where they live and reign with Christ.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Nonnegotiable pretrib rapture premillenniallist here. The pre-tribbers win out on every rapture thread on this site that I have perused. It's not even close. And what comes out during the conversation is the fact that the pre-tribbers possess vastly greater knowledge and understanding of the Scripture than their opponents. Every single time.

Brother CV5. Ok, can you please explain Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 cited earlier, from a Pre-Trib Rapture perspective?

In my opinion, the text "we will not precede those who have fallen asleep" is demonstrative. That means the Rapture will not happen until the Resurrection of the Saints takes place. Do you believe the Rapture happens before then?

Also, the verse says the Lord descends down from Heaven with a Loud Command, the Voice of an Archangel, and the Trumpet Call of God. I cannot see how this is reconciliable with the notion of a "Secret Rapture". Perhaps you can help?

God Bless.

 

[EyeWitness]

Hi Lori. Many people are studying the concept of the end of the world today. Even unbelievers are afraid the end could be near. The truth is we do not know when the end will come. We do know that each person must leave the world one day. Always be faithful to Christ. Be sure that you are baptized in the Holy Spirit and baptized in the water in the name of the Lord Jesus. That fulfills the requirements stated in the gospel of John for entering into the kingdom of God. Next be faithful until the end so that you may enter into God's rest as written about in Hebrews.

 

[FreeGrace2]

WRONG! How can the antichrist come to power and mislead the ignorant masses if the true Christian church (the restraining Spirit) is still here?

The Holy Spirit doesn't leave. 2 Thess 2 is about moral government that is the restrainer. And we have plenty of history that proves it.

Just look around the world now. Without moral government, all hell is breaking loose. The latest moral government to go is the US. We are no longer a restraint on evil governments.

We are seeing prophecy unfold before our eyes.

Do you believe there will be evangelism during the Tribulation? Yes, there will. So the Holy Spirit CAN'T leave. That is His ministry.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pre-tribulation is clearly presented in scriptures. Yes, if that is your question, it is my belief.

Then please prove it with verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

No one has done that. Can you?

 

[peldom10]

Then please prove it with verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

No one has done that. Can you?

I have answered you on that query already.
See posts.

Why are you insisting on something to be proved when in fact...to my knowledge ......is not stated in scriptures...but may be inferred?

 

[peldom10]

Brother CV5. Ok, can you please explain Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 cited earlier, from a Pre-Trib Rapture perspective?

In my opinion, the text "we will not precede those who have fallen asleep" is demonstrative. That means the Rapture will not happen until the Resurrection of the Saints takes place. Do you believe the Rapture happens before then?

Also, the verse says the Lord descends down from Heaven with a Loud Command, the Voice of an Archangel, and the Trumpet Call of God. I cannot see how this is reconciliable with the notion of a "Secret Rapture". Perhaps you can help?

God Bless.

Those in graves and alive in Christ will be taken....those in graves are .........first.
That is 1st thing in the rapture process. Alive is followed.

 

[peldom10]

timed out...

......those alive follows.....(not ...alive is followed)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then please prove it with verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

No one has done that. Can you?

I have answered you on that query already.
See posts.

Whatever verses you did share DIDN'T describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. That is the WHOLE THRUST of the "rapture" view.

So, do you actually have any verses that describe that event?

Why are you insisting on something to be proved when in fact...to my knowledge ......is not stated in scriptures...but may be inferred?

And that is my point!! The ONLY verses pretribbers have require INFERENCE.

When inference is introduced, like a parable, anyone can say anything about what it means.

And all the verses that pretribbers have to infer can easily be explained without any inference to Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

If Jesus DOES plan on taking glorified believers to heaven, why didn't the Bible just say so? Isn't that kind of important??

However, there ARE verses that clearly state that there is ONE resurrection for the saved, and since there will be Trib martyrs (saved people), who are resurrected in the ONE resurrection in Rev 20:5, the idea of any kind of resurrection BEFORE the trib cannot be true.

So, post trib resurrection types don't need "inference" for their view. We have clear Scripture.

Why do you default to verses that "infer" something when there ARE verses that clearly place the ONE resurrection of believers AFTER the Trib at the Second Advent? I really don't understand that.

One resurrection of believers: Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.

There is also one resurrection of unbelievers, for the purpose of attending the GWT judgment. John 5:29, Acts 24:15.

There are 2 verses that very clearly say that the "gathering up" (2 Thess 2:1) and the resurrection (1 Cor 15:23) will be "when He comes".

In EVERY case where Jesus is said to "come back" refers to the Second Advent. Proof? In the OT, prophecy only describes Jesus as coming to earth TWICE; the FIRST advent as a baby, to become the Suffering Servant and Savior, and the SECOND advent as King of kings.

There is NO OT prophecy about Jesus coming to the clouds and taking anyone back to heaven.

So, ONLY 2 advents. The resurrection is at the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1 and 1 Cor 15:23.

You rely on inference. I rely on clearly stated verses.

 

[JAPOV]

INFERENCE... MYSTERY... GIFT OF THE SPIRIT... GOD GIVEN COMMON SENSE... all the same.

 

[peldom10]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then please prove it with verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

No one has done that. Can you?

Whatever verses you did share DIDN'T describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. That is the WHOLE THRUST of the "rapture" view.

So, do you actually have any verses that describe that event?


And that is my point!! The ONLY verses pretribbers have require INFERENCE.

When inference is introduced, like a parable, anyone can say anything about what it means.

And all the verses that pretribbers have to infer can easily be explained without any inference to Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

If Jesus DOES plan on taking glorified believers to heaven, why didn't the Bible just say so? Isn't that kind of important??

However, there ARE verses that clearly state that there is ONE resurrection for the saved, and since there will be Trib martyrs (saved people), who are resurrected in the ONE resurrection in Rev 20:5, the idea of any kind of resurrection BEFORE the trib cannot be true.

So, post trib resurrection types don't need "inference" for their view. We have clear Scripture.

Why do you default to verses that "infer" something when there ARE verses that clearly place the ONE resurrection of believers AFTER the Trib at the Second Advent? I really don't understand that.

One resurrection of believers: Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.

There is also one resurrection of unbelievers, for the purpose of attending the GWT judgment. John 5:29, Acts 24:15.

There are 2 verses that very clearly say that the "gathering up" (2 Thess 2:1) and the resurrection (1 Cor 15:23) will be "when He comes".

In EVERY case where Jesus is said to "come back" refers to the Second Advent. Proof? In the OT, prophecy only describes Jesus as coming to earth TWICE; the FIRST advent as a baby, to become the Suffering Servant and Savior, and the SECOND advent as King of kings.

There is NO OT prophecy about Jesus coming to the clouds and taking anyone back to heaven.

So, ONLY 2 advents. The resurrection is at the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1 and 1 Cor 15:23.

You rely on inference. I rely on clearly stated verses.

No.....the rapture...is the rapture.
You cannot apply the transference mind set there by advocating others things are included or the basic ingredient is absent..
It doesn't work that way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then please prove it with verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

No one has done that. Can you?

No.....the rapture...is the rapture.

Sure. Something is something. Nothing is nothing.

What you have not done is share a verse that describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Because He won't be doing that.

You cannot apply the transference mind set there by advocating others things are included or the basic ingredient is absent..
It doesn't work that way.

This doesn't make sense. What is your point?

I don't have to "apply" anything but what the Bible directly says. The resurrection of all believers will occur at the Second Advent.

I've shared the verses that say all this. No inference, no transference, no speculation. Just straight Scripture.

 

[cv5]

Brother CV5. Ok, can you please explain Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 cited earlier, from a Pre-Trib Rapture perspective?

In my opinion, the text "we will not precede those who have fallen asleep" is demonstrative. That means the Rapture will not happen until the Resurrection of the Saints takes place. Do you believe the Rapture happens before then?

Also, the verse says the Lord descends down from Heaven with a Loud Command, the Voice of an Archangel, and the Trumpet Call of God. I cannot see how this is reconciliable with the notion of a "Secret Rapture". Perhaps you can help?

God Bless.

Greetings brother. I am doing some work compiling relevant posts from various "Rapture" threads. There are many many scholarly posts to choose from. I would recommend a poster by the name of TheDivineWatermark. He is by far the finest rapture scholar on Christian Chat.

Here are some PRELIMINARY study notes.

https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read
https://christianchat.com/threads/explain-2thessalonians-2-6-7-use-the-kjv.192101/post-4246449
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-key-to-the-pre-trib-rapture.198174/post-4521594
https://lifecoach4god.life/2013/06/...etribulational-rapture-by-dr-john-f-walvoord/

Here are some posts speaking more directly to your inquiries.

1 Thes 4:13-18
https://christianchat.com/search/648492/?q=g726&c[users]=TheDivineWatermark&o=date
https://christianchat.com/search/648498/?q=harpazo&c[users]=TheDivineWatermark&o=date

"You are equating the words "resurrection" and "rapture," as though they were identical things, one and the same. I am not.
For example, [pertaining to "the Church which is His body"] "the dead IN Christ shall rise [G450] first" (<---this is "resurrection" ['to stand again'], here),
"THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726] together with them [AS ONE] in the clouds for the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR..." (<---this is the "rapture" [this only occurs once, pertaining SOLELY to the "ONE BODY [AS ONE]"--"Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"])"

https://christianchat.com/threads/a...ime-among-some-christians.192730/post-4285490
https://christianchat.com/threads/twinkling-of-an-eye.184441/post-3968015
https://christianchat.com/threads/an-analysis-on-the-144-000-in-revelation.204640/post-4807638
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4761958
https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4739995
https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4699032
https://christianchat.com/threads/twinkling-of-an-eye.184441/post-3905832
https://christianchat.com/threads/why-is-the-end-times-so-important.181225/post-3903016
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4790127

1 Cor 15:50-54
https://christianchat.com/search/648496/?q=twinkling&c[users]=TheDivineWatermark&o=date

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4749936
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4784747
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4790154
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4761958
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4758640
https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4671236
https://christianchat.com/threads/twinkling-of-an-eye.184441/post-3927147

Use the search tool...

 

[DavidTree]

Or to be more exact...the first resurrection takes place during the Great Tribulation.

And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants and also their brethren, who were to be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Revelation 6:9-11)

Do you believe the Fifth Seal the Resurrection?

 

[DavidTree]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then please prove it with verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

No one has done that. Can you?

Sure. Something is something. Nothing is nothing.

What you have not done is share a verse that describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Because He won't be doing that.


This doesn't make sense. What is your point?

I don't have to "apply" anything but what the Bible directly says. The resurrection of all believers will occur at the Second Advent.

I've shared the verses that say all this. No inference, no transference, no speculation. Just straight Scripture.

lol x 1000

 

[DavidTree]

Pre-tribulation is clearly presented in scriptures. Yes, if that is your question, it is my belief.

Since you have studied the scriptures and can clearly see "pre-tribulation rapture", i need your assistance.

Here is my question(s) :
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.

Thank You