Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[TheLearner]

Ezekiel 33:12 gives us a glimpse into the character and sentiments of the Merciful God. He's nothing like dirty harry.

Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’



So, if you put a dog down for going rabid, would you rather it be a quick and "painless" death or would you rather torture him and just take him to the edge of death so you could watch him die slowly, forever even, if it was within your power?

Concerning, "He's nothing like dirty harry. " means we can throw away all God's judgements in the O.T. and the last book of the Bible. ok, I felt like saying, "are you feeling lucky?"

 

[TheLearner]

When Scripture speaks about the death of the soul, it is referring to the second death of burning in the lake of fire. See:

Revelation 20:10-14: "The Great White Throne Judgment
10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Hell may be terrifying, but that is only reason to (1) be so grateful to Our Lord Jesus Christ for His Gift of Salvation, and (2) to work as hard as possible to save our Non-Christian friends from going there. It is not reason to deny hellfire, since the Holy Bible clearly teaches it.

If you limit eternal for one part of Matthew 25:46, you put the same limit on the other part too. Greek grammar, does not allow for one to be limited time frame without putting the same limit on the other use of the word.

 

[TheLearner]

start with #2,259

wife is kicking me off, Good night all and God Bless,
Daniel

 

[Runningman]

Matthew 25:46 contradicts you friend.

Context matters.

Matthew 25:46
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Death is an eternal punishment. This doesn’t say eternal punishing. Furthermore, only the righteous receive eternal life, but you seem you be saying that the unrighteousness receive eternal life, too, forever being punished. Amazing how the proof verse you provided contradicts you.

 

[Runningman]

start with #2,259

wife is kicking me off, Good night all and God Bless,
Daniel

Your wife is kicking you off? Like commanding you to get off the internet? That sounds a bit overly-controlling when someone else is exercising complete mastery over your screen time as, presumably, a full grown man.

Consider opening a thread about that on the family forum because that’s interesting. I hope you’re happy and safe. God bless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I wonder why so many people make these discussions so personal. it's not my plan for eternity, but God's plan. I just believe it.

This isn't personal to me.

Then don't call God's plan MY plan, please.

I am just explaining your premise for why you're wrong. Being an eternal tormentor, given the body of evidence against it, is definitely a deliberate choice if after having come to the knowledge of the truth it is still embraced. That makes you the eternal tormenter, not God.

You have been shown clear evidence FOR eternal torment, but you have chosen to reject it. And there is NO body of evidence against it. One could say you have deceived yourself. The Bible is clear. Rev 20 is clear; all of it.

I know it says forever, but that isn't literal.

That is your only defense, and it isn't provable. It's just your deceived opinion. When John INCLUDED the aspect of TIME by saying "day and night" followed up with forever and ever, he was clearly teaching that he WAS speaking literally.

But go ahead and just keep deceiving yourself.

Forever is not always forever in the Bible.

I never even suggested it was. This is like the very weak argument of calvinists who say "all" doesn't always mean everyone.

I gave you two examples, now I'll show you more:

I'm not interested and I don't care. John said DAY AND NIGHT, FOREVER AND EVER. He was clearly speaking literally. If he hadn't included the "day and night" part, you might have had a point.

And there's more. Again, this is called apocalyptic language and it's just dramatic, not literal.

Do you really not believe that literal language can't be dramatic at the same time????? Very naive.

That's false. The Bible doesn't say that. You have one verse that has been debunked repeatedly, but from Genesis to Revelation the Bible teaches the death and or destruction of the soul. I could probably dig up a couple of dozen verses, in addition to what I have already quoted, to establish this.

Since you outright reject the obvious and clear examples of "souls under the altar" in Rev 6 (6th seal) who were shouting (really hard to do when napping) and Jesus' account of 3 real men in the after life, your claims are irrelevant.

And you outright reject the FACT that "soul" was the way people in the 1st century referred to people.

Are you aware of what Jesus said about certain people? He said their judgement will be more tolerable, not their punishment. The wages for all sin is death. I am afraid you have a lot to learn sir.

Find a mirror. Sin resulted in spiritual death IMMEDIATELY for Adam and the woman. And that condemnation was passed on to the human race (thanks Adam!). So everyone is born spiritually dead. You can only die spiritually once. And you're born that way. Can't do it again.

I think you have a lot to learn.

As to Jesus' comment about being "more tolerable" than others, given Rev 20:11-15, it is clear that unbelievers in the lake of fire will not all have the same amount of suffering. For some it will be more tolerable than for others.

Apparently you must not realize that IF IF IF a soul dies, then there is NO suffering at all. There is nothingness. That's not judgment. That's escaping judgment.

You just don't like God's plan, apparently. You need to figure out why you are unable to accept what God has decreed.

 

[Runningman]

Brother, then why did someone have to "put him down" ???

It doesn’t say why someone put him down. Maybe he was given a ride there on a donkey, as a kind of taxi service, and dropped off there? There are other possibilities than him being a cripple. You don’t seem to be considering any other option than trying to force the scripture to make the beggar unable to walk or work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

TheLearner said:
Lazarus who was put down at his gate.

The gate was on earth where he was begging for food.

Doesn't say that he wasn't given food when he begged.

And TL never said that he wasn't given food.

Go back and read it again.

I'm really disappointed at your lackadaisical reading.

 

[Runningman]

Someone started the speculation by saying he was lazy. So, why don't you admit that? Maybe you did, and I missed it.

He’s begging at a gate rather than working. What’s your definition of lazy?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No one knows any of the specifics. You are merely judging based on appearances. Since Jesus WAS describing real people, and most probably both died relatively recently, the people Jesus was talking to would have known who He was talking about. Lazarus could have been crippled, etc. You just don't know the details. So don't speculate and judge him for sinful behavior without even knowing any of the facts.

Brother, why did someone have to "put him down"? Historically, it is believed he was a leper --- thus could have lost a limp or was weak.

I really enjoyed your explanation; shows how much you have paid attention.

It is clear from Jesus' narration of the story that Lazarus needed help to get to the rich man's gate. Jesus gives us just as much detail as necessary to understand and follow His point.

The very fact that he was "put" at the gate is evidence that he didn't get there on his own. So RM gets all worked up and judges him as sinful, lazy, etc. Amazing!

 

[FreeGrace2]

If I had the choice, I would allow unsaved to go into non=existence.

I guess most annihilationists don't realize that their view of the unsaved parallels that of atheists who deny any afterlife at all.

The only difference is annihilationists have to admit some amount of suffering before the soul is annihilated. That wouldn't hardly impress an atheist.

 

[FreeGrace2]

TheLearner said:
Matthew 25:46 contradicts you friend.

Context matters.

Matthew 25:46
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Death is an eternal punishment.

This is where you go off the rails. annihilation isn't any kind of punishment.

One HAS TO experience punishment in order to be punished.

If I was judge and you violated a law that required 20 lashes on your back, but I first gave you enough anesthetic so that you wouldn't feel anything, and provided enough for you to fully heal without feeling any of the effects of the 20 lashes, would you consider that a punishment? If you are sane and rational and reasonable, you would have to say "no".

This doesn’t say eternal punishing.

It means the same thing.

Furthermore, only the righteous receive eternal life, but you seem you be saying that the unrighteousness receive eternal life,

Whoa! There is a HUGE difference between life with God in perfect environment and suffering torment in total darkness for eternity.

too, forever being punished. Amazing how the proof verse you provided contradicts you.

Amazing how you don't really understand much.

 

[FreeGrace2]

TheLearner said:
Brother, then why did someone have to "put him down" ???

It doesn’t say why someone put him down.

That's irrelevant. Don't just blow this off with unnecessary info. We don't need to know why.

Maybe he was given a ride there on a donkey, as a kind of taxi service, and dropped off there?

What you are doing is just desperately looking for excuses to maintain your deception.

There are other possibilities than him being a cripple. You don’t seem to be considering any other option than trying to force the scripture to make the beggar unable to walk or work.

Said the one who is trying to force Scripture more than anyone.

 

[Mitaze1075]

I agree 100%. At the moment I’m supportive of Conditional Immortality. Eternal conscious torment is definitely not in the Bible. I found that this is a great book on the subject.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He’s begging at a gate rather than working. What’s your definition of lazy?

Oh, this is just pitiful. What is most obvious is that he was in bad health and couldn't work or crippled and couldn't work.

You are desperate for any excuse.

 

[Runningman]

You have been shown clear evidence FOR eternal torment, but you have chosen to reject it. And there is NO body of evidence against it. One could say you have deceived yourself. The Bible is clear. Rev 20 is clear; all of it.{/QUOTE]

If it was clear then I wouldn't be debating it with you. If I see something I agree with you on I'll either say so or not challenge it. For your benefit and others reading I'll go the extra mile until you understand it or leave you to your own ways at some point.

That is your only defense, and it isn't provable. It's just your deceived opinion. When John INCLUDED the aspect of TIME by saying "day and night" followed up with forever and ever, he was clearly teaching that he WAS speaking literally.

Why do you get to decide "forever" torment in Revelation 20:10 is literal when I just showed you Exodus 21:6 and Jonah 2:6, and Isaiah 34 where forever is not literally forever? What are the other verses that support eternal torment? If you have any to establish eternal torment as a well-known creed preached by Jesus and the apostles then don't be shy.

But go ahead and just keep deceiving yourself.

I'm not deceived. I was not raised in a Christian home and indoctrinated into a denomination like you were from an early age. I made a conscious decision as an adult to come to Christ. My faith is genuine, concrete, and I believe I have been hand-selected by God Himself to serve Him.

I never even suggested it was. This is like the very weak argument of calvinists who say "all" doesn't always mean everyone.

Ah. I see you you're just deflecting and now you're invoking the Calvinists to compare me to them. That's amateur and your demonization tactics won't work on me.

I'm not interested and I don't care. John said DAY AND NIGHT, FOREVER AND EVER. He was clearly speaking literally. If he hadn't included the "day and night" part, you might have had a point.

Interesting. Do tell which parts of the book of Revelation, arguably the most symbolic book in the entire Bible, are literal and not. You have to really be trying at this point to deceive yourself.

Do you really not believe that literal language can't be dramatic at the same time????? Very naive.

Literal language can be dramatic, but there's plenty of reasonable doubt to conclude Revelation 20:10, which applies to three specific persons and not everyone, is not literal. Continue to reject it if you will. It isn't a matter of salvation to not understand this correctly.

Since you outright reject the obvious and clear examples of "souls under the altar" in Rev 6 (6th seal) who were shouting (really hard to do when napping) and Jesus' account of 3 real men in the after life, your claims are irrelevant.

I've made no such discussion about Revelation 6 until now so I think you're confusing me with a different commenter. Unfortunately, now that you've revealed more error, I am forced to correct you.

Revelation 6:11
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Look up the word rest here in Revelation 6:11. It can be interpreted as sleep.

And you outright reject the FACT that "soul" was the way people in the 1st century referred to people.

Sorry, you're thinking of someone else I think.

Find a mirror. Sin resulted in spiritual death IMMEDIATELY for Adam and the woman. And that condemnation was passed on to the human race (thanks Adam!). So everyone is born spiritually dead. You can only die spiritually once. And you're born that way. Can't do it again.

Wrong again. Babies are not sinful. Now you have to explain why you think baby Jesus was born a sinner.

I think you have a lot to learn.

I'm always willing to learn.

As to Jesus' comment about being "more tolerable" than others, given Rev 20:11-15, it is clear that unbelievers in the lake of fire will not all have the same amount of suffering. For some it will be more tolerable than for others.

Unbelievers go to their "second death." The wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23. You seem to really want people to suffer forever.

Apparently you must not realize that IF IF IF a soul dies, then there is NO suffering at all. There is nothingness. That's not judgment. That's escaping judgment.

You just don't like God's plan, apparently. You need to figure out why you are unable to accept what God has decreed.

A death sentence is a judgment. On earth being put to death is the greatest possible punishment. Suddenly, when it comes to the Bible, to you a death sentence is no longer a problem. That's fascinating cognitive dissonance.

 

[Runningman]

TheLearner said:
Lazarus who was put down at his gate.

The gate was on earth where he was begging for food.

And TL never said that he wasn't given food.


I'm really disappointed at your lackadaisical reading.

I didn't say that he said he wasn't given food. I am just pointing out the facts. FreeGrace2, I think your thoughts about me are causing you to project a bit of your desperation to find fault with me. Slow down.

 

[Runningman]

I guess most annihilationists don't realize that their view of the unsaved parallels that of atheists who deny any afterlife at all.

The only difference is annihilationists have to admit some amount of suffering before the soul is annihilated. That wouldn't hardly impress an atheist.

If you're wrong about this then that's tantamount to calling God an atheist. I can't think of many other things more blasphemous than that. Let me remind you that God has repeatedly said in scripture that souls can die.

 

[Runningman]

Oh, this is just pitiful. What is most obvious is that he was in bad health and couldn't work or crippled and couldn't work.

You are desperate for any excuse.

Which verse says he was in bad health? I think it's pitiful you require Lazarus to be in bad health. Aside from him having some sores, it doesn't say that he can't walk. If you assume the best of Lazarus, someone dropped him off there, I guess on a donkey or something, I don't know. He begged for food and didn't seem to work.

Okay, why didn't he use his hands to do basket weaving or something else like that?

 

[Phoneman-777]

I already posted that many times here.

And I've already shown you that the dead will no sooner rejoice than will trees and cedars. You're actually pointing to SYMBOLISM as "proof" of consciousness in death?