Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, Jesus didn't give a parable about Lazarus and a rich man. He gave us a glimpse of life after death. There are no second chances. Everyone is accountable for their decisions.

We know it is not a parable because Jesus mentioned proper names, including Abraham and the discussion between Abraham and the rich man. No way that is a parable.

Jesus' account also proves that there is no such thing as soul sleep.

It is the heresy that at physical death, the soul stays in the dead body and sleeps, until the resurrection, at which it awakens. It is a foundational doctrine of the SDA.

Where can I find verses in the bible about that or what word should I look up in the concordance to find verses.

Not sure which you are referring to: Lazarus and a rich man, or "soul death". Please advise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I understand what you are saying about the dog but we are talking about the bible I am trying to learn so please show me from the bible what chapter and what verse so I can read it. I don't want to sound like a little kid saying prove it, but I do want to truly understand it. I can tell you the sky is purple all day long; does that make it purple.

You don't need to apologize for asking for what verse is being referenced. That was exactly how the "more noble Bereans" studied the Scriptures. Acts 17:11

 

[FreeGrace2]

And, of course, the wicked and righteous both die physically and that's not changing anytime soon. What God is pleading with the House of Israel about is the death of their souls; He doesn't want their souls to die, but they will die if they don't turn from their ways.

Ezekiel 18:20
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die...

New American Standard Bible
The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Christian Standard Bible
The person who sins is the one who will die. A son won’t suffer punishment for the father’s iniquity, and a father won’t suffer punishment for the son’s iniquity. The righteousness of the righteous person will be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked person will be on him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The person who sins is the one who will die. A son won’t suffer punishment for the father’s iniquity, and a father won’t suffer punishment for the son’s iniquity. The righteousness of the righteous person will be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked person will be on him.”
New American Bible
Only the one who sins shall die. The son shall not be charged with the guilt of his father, nor shall the father be charged with the guilt of his son. Justice belongs to the just, and wickedness to the wicked.
NET Bible
The person who sins is the one who will die. A son will not suffer for his father's iniquity, and a father will not suffer for his son's iniquity; the righteous person will be judged according to his righteousness, and the wicked person according to his wickedness.
New Revised Standard Version
The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own.

Have you studied what the whole verse says? You only quoted the first short part. The verse is about people. People die.

Both the OT and NT use the word "soul" for human beings. In the Air Force, and I assume all services, use the word "soul" to mean "person" during mass casualty exercises. The letters S.O.B. refers to "souls on board". iow, how many people on board.

You're beating a dead horse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When Scripture speaks about the death of the soul, it is referring to the second death of burning in the lake of fire.

While the lake of fire is described as the "second death", it is not referring to an immaterial soul.

All unbelievers will be resurrected. John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15.

They will be resurrected back into their mortal bodies, raised from death, to appear before the GWT judgment. Rev 20:11-15

I used to think "second death" referred to eternal death, but after studying about resurrection and realizing that unbelievers will be resurrected, it occurred to me that it will be their mortal bodies that will die again. Hence, the second death.

The only 2 humans who won't die twice yet end up in the lake of fire are the beast (aka a/c) and FP, per Rev 19.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It’s called the second death because they lose their life like they do in their first death. That’s consistent with the established Biblical definition of death.

Yes it says three persons will be tormented “forever and ever” but that isn’t literal.

When "day and night" occur in that sentence as well, it IS about time. iow, their time in the lake of fire will be forever and ever. It is as literal as can be.

That’s called apocalyptic language it’s and used for dramatic effect.

Is it any less "dramatic" by being literal? Of course not.

Since it specific about three persons being tormented forever, it isn’t reasonable to expand that more broadly to the general population of sinners.

It is DIRECTLY reasonable and applicable. If 2 humans are cast into the lake of fire in their mortal bodies, there is NO reason to deny that the rest of unbelieving humanity won't be as well. We know that all unbelievers will be resurrected, without glorification. That means back to their mortal bodies.

The devil, beast, and false prophet are particularly exceptional antagonists and receive a greater punishment.

You are just presuming that the rest of humanity won't receive what they receive. Without ANY evidence at all.

Now, forever and ever doesn’t always mean forever and ever where it can be proven that soul death is real.

And there's the rub. There is no such thing.

Applying consistent interpretation is how we avoid contradictions in scripture. Some may just call this good hermeneutics.

Edom is not bribing forever and ever:

Isaiah 34:10
10It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Nothing about bribing here. It clearly says that no one will pass through Edom. Ever. Are people passing through Edom?

 

[kenallen]

You don't need to apologize for asking for what verse is being referenced. That was exactly how the "more noble Bereans" studied the Scriptures. Acts 17:11

Thank you I am going to have to take time to look up the Bereans they sound like people I might want to be like

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thank you I am going to have to take time to look up the Bereans they sound like people I might want to be like

I have no doubt that you will want to be like them!

Their method is the basis for my own study. I apply their method to everything that others say. It's too bad that so few believers apply that to their own pastors, SS teachers, radio preachers, books, etc.

I was brought up in a Christian home, and was taught many things that aren't biblical. The Berean method has been invaluable to me.

 

[TheLearner]

My theology attempts to take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as literal and it produces inconsistencies and contradiction in scriptures. I'm afraid if you can't see that then you're the one who is blind after all. No offense, but sometimes blind people don't know they are blind until they are shown, brother. God bless.

I can not find the thread I started on that. Please list your inconsistencies and contradiction in scripture.

 

[TheLearner]

He was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom, not because he couldn't walk, but because no one can get there unless they are carried there. Tell me how you intend to cross the great gulf fixed between paradise and comfort without being carried?

Lazarus who was put down at his gate.

The gate was on earth where he was begging for food.

 

[TheLearner]

That's unnecessary to place any emphasis; I can read fine print quite well, glory to God.

Proof isn't the same thing as evidence, by the way. The narrative you're projecting would be circumstantial evidence.

Proof would be establishing something as a fact or truth and it would require Jesus to either plainly state it as such or tangible documentation of Lazarus' alleged disability; you produced neither.

Even people who can walk can be laid down at a gate, it doesn't explain why. Jesus didn't plainly say Lazarus was handicapped so there is no proof here which is partly why this parable is so debated.

If someone is put down that means he did not walk there.

• “Saint Lazarus the Leper“. CatholicSaints.Info. 30 May 2021. Web. 9 April 2022. https://catholicsaints.info/saint-lazarus/

Historical art shows him as being weak, thus had to be carried. The sores history wise he is believed to be leper.

"The second mention of a person named Lazarus was in a parable in which Jesus describes a common scene of a poor man begging. (Luke, Chapter 16, vv. 19-31) He is described as being "full of sores" and is generally thought to have been suffering from leprosy, the disease being endemic in the Holy Land at the time. Here Jesus uses the name ‘Lazarus’ in the generic sense of someone whom God helps while others ignore. "
https://www.st-lazarus.org.uk/content/st-lazarus

 

[Runningman]

I wonder why so many people make these discussions so personal. it's not my plan for eternity, but God's plan. I just believe it.

This isn't personal to me. I am just explaining your premise for why you're wrong. Being an eternal tormentor, given the body of evidence against it, is definitely a deliberate choice if after having come to the knowledge of the truth it is still embraced. That makes you the eternal tormenter, not God.

Your's is. Rev 20 is quite clear. The beast and FP, who are human beings, will be tormented "day and night forever and ever".

You are free to mangle that verse as much and as frequently as you want, but the meaning is very clear.

I know it says forever, but that isn't literal. Forever is not always forever in the Bible. I gave you two examples, now I'll show you more:

Whatever Jonah was going through, it didn't last forever:
Jonah 2:6
6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever:

This person didn't serve him forever:
Exodus 21:6
6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

And there's more. Again, this is called apocalyptic language and it's just dramatic, not literal. You're free to disagree.

And since the beast and FP were cast into the lake of fire, so will ALL unbelievers, per Rev 20:11-15. And they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.

That's false. The Bible doesn't say that. You have one verse that has been debunked repeatedly, but from Genesis to Revelation the Bible teaches the death and or destruction of the soul. I could probably dig up a couple of dozen verses, in addition to what I have already quoted, to establish this.

Are you aware of what Jesus said about certain people? The citizens of Sodom & Gomorrha will have it more tolerable than some of the citizens of Jesus' day. So we know that for those who will be cast into the lake of fire, it will be MORE tolerable than others, or LESS tolerable than others, depending upon the judgment of their works: 20:11-14.

Are you aware of what Jesus said about certain people? He said their judgement will be more tolerable, not their punishment. The wages for all sin is death. I am afraid you have a lot to learn sir.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Runningman]

Lazarus who was put down at his gate.

The gate was on earth where he was begging for food.

Doesn't say that he wasn't given food when he begged. Go back and read it again.

 

[Runningman]

If someone is put down that means he did not walk there.

• “Saint Lazarus the Leper“. CatholicSaints.Info. 30 May 2021. Web. 9 April 2022. https://catholicsaints.info/saint-lazarus/

Historical art shows him as being weak, thus had to be carried. The sores history wise he is believed to be leper.

"The second mention of a person named Lazarus was in a parable in which Jesus describes a common scene of a poor man begging. (Luke, Chapter 16, vv. 19-31) He is described as being "full of sores" and is generally thought to have been suffering from leprosy, the disease being endemic in the Holy Land at the time. Here Jesus uses the name ‘Lazarus’ in the generic sense of someone whom God helps while others ignore. "
https://www.st-lazarus.org.uk/content/st-lazarus

Interesting. Now you're quoting extra-Biblical sources from Catholics.

Doesn't say he couldn't walk, but if he did then he didn't make every effort to utilize his hands. Doesn't say his hands were maimed. Doesn't say he had leprosy. Doesn't say what his problem was exactly. Just a bunch of circumstantial evidence.

Based off of the provided information, it can be at minimum establish that Lazarus was slothful and that's a sin.

 

[TheLearner]

What is soul sleep?

"The basic idea behind soul sleep is that when a person dies, they do not immediately go to heaven to be with God, but enter into a state of unconscious limbo. They are no longer alive, but they are not in heaven either. They are not conscious of being dead, but they have not ceased to exist. Instead, they are “asleep.” "
...
"
Is Soul Sleep Biblical?
I do not believe the Bible teaches soul sleep.

First, Ecclesiastes 9:5 should not be taken as a reference to whether or not the dead are “conscious.” Ecclesiastes is written for those who are “under the sun,” that is, for those who are alive (Eccl 1:1-3). As such, Ecclesiastes 9:5 is telling those who are alive that it is vanity and folly to seek help from the dead, for we will get no answers or help from them.

Secondly, though Paul does use the word “asleep” in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, this is not a reference to “soul sleep” but simply pictures how a dead person appears to one who is living. To someone who is alive, a dead person looks like they are “asleep.” This imagery is used elsewhere in Paul’s writings to describe death (cf. 1 Cor 11:30). So again, the term says nothing whatsoever about the consciousness (or lack of consciousness) of the dead.

Thirdly, we see various places in the Bible where people talk about what happens after death, and there does not seem to be any “unconscious waiting period” of soul sleep at all. When the thief on the cross asks Jesus to remember Him when He enters into glory, Jesus says, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Can it really be imagined that Jesus actually meant, “Today you will die, and then enter into a state of soul sleep, so that thousands of years from now when you are resurrected from the dead, you will be with me in paradise”? I don’t think so.

Then there is the Mount of Transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-8 where Moses and Elijah appear and talk with Jesus. If they are talking to Jesus, they certainly are not in some sort of unconscious soul sleep.

And of course, we mustn’t forget 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This once again seems to teach that as soon as our spirit departs from our body, it is immediately present with God.

There are a few other texts as well (feel free to include them in the comments below), but I think you get the point: Soul sleep is not taught in the Bible. "

https://redeeminggod.com/what-is-soul-sleep/

 

[TheLearner]

No one knows any of the specifics. You are merely judging based on appearances. Since Jesus WAS describing real people, and most probably both died relatively recently, the people Jesus was talking to would have known who He was talking about. Lazarus could have been crippled, etc. You just don't know the details. So don't speculate and judge him for sinful behavior without even knowing any of the facts.


Jesus described him as a poor man. Good grief, your highly judgmental evaluation is unjustified. Again, you have no idea.


What?? He made it to Paradise, the place where ALL saved OT people went. He was SAVED.


Read it again. The rich man was in a place of torment for his UNBELIEF.


Read it again. This REAL story is a warning about NO SECOND CHANCES.


Please STOP being so judgmental when you don't even have any facts about either man.


This is really confused and contorted. Rich people can go either to heaven or hell, based on whether they believed in the Messiah or not.


Your highly and unjustified judgments make no sense.

The rich man realized WHY he was where he was and wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his 5 brothers to warn them HOW TO AVOID the place of torments. iow, the rich man wanted Lazarus to evangelize his living brothers so they wouldn't end up there.

So very easy to understand.

Brother, why did someone have to "put him down"? Historically, it is believed he was a leper --- thus could have lost a limp or was weak.

 

[TheLearner]

FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, Jesus didn't give a parable about Lazarus and a rich man. He gave us a glimpse of life after death. There are no second chances. Everyone is accountable for their decisions.

We know it is not a parable because Jesus mentioned proper names, including Abraham and the discussion between Abraham and the rich man. No way that is a parable.

Jesus' account also proves that there is no such thing as soul sleep.

It is the heresy that at physical death, the soul stays in the dead body and sleeps, until the resurrection, at which it awakens. It is a foundational doctrine of the SDA.

Hi Free Grace 2, what we must remember is Scripture is progressive in unvailing truth --- example, O.T. vs N.T.

 

[TheLearner]

I think we're discussing what the Bible says and doesn't say. No need to tell people they are being judgmental or they need to knock it off.

From all I can see there is a person begging at the Rich Man's gates. Doesn't mention a handicap, doesn't mention he offered any services, doesn't say much either way. So why are you the one saying I have a problem when you're doing just as much speculation as me?

So if you want to start flinging accusations at people, they have a way of returning back on you and your assessment of me makes you a hypocrite. No offense, but I hope that opens your eyes a bit. God bless.

Brother, then why did someone have to "put him down" ???

 

[TheLearner]

If no one knows all the facts about this parable then any further analysis beyond the plain text is called inference and interpretation which is just our speculation. Often, that is how Bible discussions go so it's unnecessary to apply your judgements to others when you're doing the exact same thing.

Someone started the speculation by saying he was lazy. So, why don't you admit that? Maybe you did, and I missed it.

 

[TheLearner]

Ezekiel 33:12 gives us a glimpse into the character and sentiments of the Merciful God. He's nothing like dirty harry.

Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’



So, if you put a dog down for going rabid, would you rather it be a quick and "painless" death or would you rather torture him and just take him to the edge of death so you could watch him die slowly, forever even, if it was within your power?

If I had the choice, I would allow unsaved to go into non=existence.

 

[TheLearner]

You’re an eternal tormenter but the Bible clearly teaches the death and destruction of the soul. Your premise is wrong. We’ll just disagree on this.

Matthew 25:46 contradicts you friend.