Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[rogerg]

In fact, the experience on the road to Damascus was to prove to Paul that Jesus HAD BEEN resurrected. Up to that point, he, like all the other religious leaders, viewed Him as a mere human, and therefore blasphemous for claiming to be God's Son.

You find this conclusion in the Bible, where? Saul was unquestionably saved on the road to Damascus. Acts 22:14 is what happens to someone when they become saved. Only they can learn His will, see and hear Him. Notice that God chose Saul, Saul didn't choose God.
You know, you've developed a very bad habit of conjuring up doctrine, which doctrine is not found and is against scripture.

I'm not going to refute all of your points as it wouldn't be worth the effort, except for the one below. I'll add that all saved Christians are to perform good works, but that is wholly different than good works being the purpose of election. True election, is of God having chosen certain people to salvation from the foundation of the world.

[Act 22:14 KJV] 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

shortly thereafter Saul was born-again

[Act 9:17 KJV] 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[rogerg]

Hey, everybody.

To spare me from having to wade through 157 pages of posts here, could somebody please just give me a brief list of the differences of opinion here in relation to what "election" is?

Thanks in advance.

Overall, I've found two, but I guess there could be other permutations.

Some believe it represents those whom God has chosen from the foundation of the world to salvation (my belief too)
Some believe it is to service

Hope that helps

 

[Live4Him2]

Real simple. Calvinists claim that God elects or chooses who will believe, and use Eph 1:4 to propagate that idea.

But EVERY verse in the NT that conveys a purpose in election, is to service. Including Eph 1:4. The "us" in "God has chosen us" is defined in v19 as "us who believe". So, in fact, Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers. The "in Him" is a parenthetical phrase, and doesn't define the purpose of election.

The purpose is stated in the words "to be holy and blameless". This is an election to service, since being holy and blameless is a lifestyle to be lived.

An excellent example that clearly shows election is to service is here:

1 Cor 1:27,28

27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Red words refer to what God has chosen.
Blue words refer to the purpose of God's election: service.

John 6:70,71 proves that election is NOT to salvation:

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Red words refer to who God has chosen.
Blue words refer to the purpose for which Judas was chosen. Again, service.

Overall, I've found two, but I guess there could be other permutations.

Some believe it represents those whom God has chosen from the foundation of the world to salvation (my belief too)
Some believe it is to service

Hope that helps

Thank you both for your responses.

 

[kaylagrl]

when you wont look at the actuall verses in question. You will never see it.

You can run,, But there will come a time when you can not hide.

Put bluntly, if God does not keep His covenant that He made to Abe/Israel, Christians don't have a chance in hell of God keeping His promises to us. If He won't keep His promise to His chosen people, He won't keep it to the ones grafted in either.

p.s. Rogerg you might as well save your red x's for someone else. This is an issue I have studied for years. Your x isn't going to stop me or change the truth. Total waste of your time.

 

[kaylagrl]

Hey, everybody.

To spare me from having to wade through 157 pages of posts here, could somebody please just give me a brief list of the differences of opinion here in relation to what "election" is?

Thanks in advance.

Brother, as far as I know the split is Calvinism vs Arminianism. But from what I gather here, not everyone holds to the entirety of what Calvin taught. The tulip set of beliefs. Some believe parts of the "petals" so to speak. Hope that helps.

 

[kaylagrl]

Anyone truly interested in knowing God's word just can not read those chapters or the Old Testament alone and come to spiritual wisdom

No one here said you do. We can't get off step one because you deny that the Abrahamic Covenant was both eternal and unconditional, which you have been shown, by Scripture, that they are. We're stuck at step one because of you! You're denying what the Word says. If you deny the OT why move on to the NT?

--you obviously don't understand how God wrote the Bible: He wrote it as ONE integrated book. That which was begun in the Old Testament was completed in/by the New Testament in Christ and in no other way. All of the Bible starts with, and ends with, Christ.

But you don't believe this. You deny step one. You can't get to Christ if you can't agree with step one.

If you try to isolate the OT verses as being self-contained, you will miss the message.The Old Testament writings were not intended by God to be perceived as stand-alone, nor as ends in themselves which God just happened to pass-through to the New Testament as-is. From the OT to the NT it is the progressive revelation of God's doctrines, all of which must terminate in Christ and in Christ alone - He is the apex of the spiritual pyramid, with everything beneath and culminating in, by, and for Him - with nothing left outside of Him.

Again, no one here intimated that. You're bickering over the OT. You deny what the Word says, even when it's written right in front of your eyes. How can we move on? We can't, you're stuck. We're waiting on you.

 

[Live4Him2]

Brother, as far as I know the split is Calvinism vs Arminianism. But from what I gather here, not everyone holds to the entirety of what Calvin taught. The tulip set of beliefs. Some believe parts of the "petals" so to speak. Hope that helps.

Thanks.

At my end (the correct response to what follows), you know where Calvin can put his "tulips" (two lips).

Anyhow, I couldn't even tell anybody what Arminianism is if someone put a gun to my head.

I do know scripture, though...

 

[rogerg]

No one here said you do. We can't get off step one because you deny that the Abrahamic Covenant was both eternal and unconditional, which you have been shown, by Scripture, that they are. We're stuck at step one because of you! You're denying what the Word says. If you deny the OT why move on to the NT?

Your problem is that you don't realize who the promise was made to by God. It was NOT to Abraham's physical seed but his spiritual seed. If you'd try to harmonize Old and New Testaments, you'd see that


[Rom 9:7-8 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[kaylagrl]

Thanks.

At my end (the correct response to what follows), you know where Calvin can put his "tulips" (two lips).

Anyhow, I couldn't even tell anybody what Arminianism is if someone put a gun to my head.

I do know scripture, though...

It's funny I was talking to my mother about this last night and things we are discussing here. I said " did you know there is a name for pretty much everything you believe?" lol Arminianism, hadn't heard it till I came to CC. We grew up the same as you said, we believed what the Bible said, we didn't give it any fancy names. lol

 

[kaylagrl]

Your problem is that you don't realize who the promise was made to by God. It was NOT to Abraham's physical seed but his spiritual seed. If you'd try to harmonize Old and New Testaments, you'd see that


[Rom 9:7-8 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Parts of the covenant involve Gentiles. Other parts don't. The promise of return still remains to be fulfilled and it will be. Israel will inherit the land.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Anyone truly interested in knowing God's word just can not read those chapters or the Old Testament alone and come to spiritual wisdom --you obviously don't understand how God wrote the Bible: He wrote it as ONE integrated book. That which was begun in the Old Testament was completed in/by the New Testament in Christ and in no other way. All of the Bible starts with, and ends with, Christ.
If you try to isolate the OT verses as being self-contained, you will miss the message.
The Old Testament writings were not intended by God to be perceived as stand-alone, nor as ends in themselves which God just happened to pass-through to the New Testament as-is. From the OT to the NT it is the progressive revelation of God's doctrines, all of which must terminate in Christ and in Christ alone - He is the apex of the spiritual pyramid, with everything beneath and culminating in, by, and for Him - with nothing left outside of Him. This is why I wanted to know if you are a Christian - because in being so, I expected you to have perceived this concept on you own, or at the least, to be open to it.
Anyway, read these verses closely. As of right now though, I'm not too hopeful you'll get it, However, should any shine through to you, let me know and I'll try to expound upon them if you'd like.

[Luk 24:27 KJV] 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

[Jhn 5:39 KJV] 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

[Psa 40:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
[Heb 10:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

[2Co 1:20 KJV] 20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

[Act 18:28 KJV] 28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

[2Ti 3:15 KJV] 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I am done dude

Until you want to dive headfirst into the passages which actually have the promises of God written in stone. And try to explain how they are spiritual in nature.

Until you want to repent of your words that the land of Israel and nation was not part of the abrahamic covenent, when the passages you refuse to look at say otherwise.

There is no need to go further.

Non of these passages you keep throwing in my face prove your point. I have shown that far to many times to even consider looking at them anymore. Because they are a waste of my time. Until you want to dive head first into the actuall covenant betwen God and Abraham, there is nothing more to say.

That last thing you posted. That's rude. This is not even prophecy per say, IU want to look at the actual covenant. But even so. the prophecies concerning Israel. I am not the one rejecting them, You are.

so

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Your reply to me worked fine. I am not sure what happened before.

Understanding God's Elect is very, very important. In the simplest terms, God's Elect are the ones who will truly believe in Christ and therefore be saved. Election was needed because without it, no one would have been saved. (Romans 3:10-18). Election makes possible the New Birth of John 3:3-10, at God's appointed time. The New Birth makes discerning the Truth of God possible and the Truth discerned leads one to Jesus Christ. Therefore God's Elect = all who believe and all who believe = God's Elect. (John 6:44, 65 and 10:14-16, 29).

Many people call themselves saved, when in reality they are nothing more than Religionist. Just as the Religious Jews were of Jesus's day. Salvation is all of God - from beginning to end and everything in between.

election is required?

I am not understanding.

God chose (elected) to save those who would be saved based on his will. It is not something that was required was it? It was just an event..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Of course not. What's the point?


I think you maybe read through Genesis 2-3. You then may need to repent of your views.


Could you tell the thread who DID "cause the fall of mankind" since you aren't familiar with Genesis 3.

Thanks.

actually, This thread is about election. Not creation. So if you want to discuss creation, please open another thread.

Thank you

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No, it is not offered to all but only for those chosen by God for it.

Nope.

It is offered to all. In you shall ALL the nations of the world be blessed.

And, in thinking about it further, let me add to/clarify my previous post (to you) that both the Old Testament and the New Testament
are about Christ and His salvation. They are NOT about worldly nations or people though they may seem to be on the surface.

Not everything is about Gods and salvation. God telling Israel to go in and kill everyone in the land he gave them was not about salvation. God giving the law to Israel was not about salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

He has chosen us before the foundations of the world. In other words back in the first earth age when we stood with Him against Satan. We will do that again at the end of this earth age while Satan is here.
.

first age where we stood against satan??

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Hey, everybody.

To spare me from having to wade through 157 pages of posts here, could somebody please just give me a brief list of the differences of opinion here in relation to what "election" is?

Thanks in advance.

I think it goes something like this. in romans 9, where Paul spoke of two kids who would come from Rebekah and how he loved on and hated another etc etc.

1 side is saying God chose one to heaven and the other to send to hell before they were born.

The other side is saying God chose two nations, and he had a plan for one and not the other. so he loved that nation more.


1. Side says God choses people to save, and given them an advantage by making them born again where they prety much will recieve christ no matter what. While the rest of the people. he refuses to give them a change

while the other says God so loved all the world.He gave his son, That he will not force anyone to recieve his gift. He wants us to take it willingly.. And will only save those who in faith say yes..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Overall, I've found two, but I guess there could be other permutations.

Some believe it represents those whom God has chosen from the foundation of the world to salvation (my belief too)
Some believe it is to service

Hope that helps

Actually, I believe everyone here believes in the first one

I have never heard anyone discuss the second one. So not sure who or what your saying here

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Brother, as far as I know the split is Calvinism vs Arminianism. But from what I gather here, not everyone holds to the entirety of what Calvin taught. The tulip set of beliefs. Some believe parts of the "petals" so to speak. Hope that helps.

sadly it is deeper than that.

Not everyone here is one side or the other. I am neither. I reject personally both theologies as being 100% accurate..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Put bluntly, if God does not keep His covenant that He made to Abe/Israel, Christians don't have a chance in hell of God keeping His promises to us. If He won't keep His promise to His chosen people, He won't keep it to the ones grafted in either.

p.s. Rogerg you might as well save your red x's for someone else. This is an issue I have studied for years. Your x isn't going to stop me or change the truth. Total waste of your time.

If God does not keep a promise to a nation he created by his own power, and loved inspite of her sins against him.

He has no obligation to keep his promise to us.

We would then have no hope. Lets go eat drink and be merry, because it is all we can control..

 

[rogerg]

Parts of the covenant involve Gentiles. Other parts don't. The promise of return still remains to be fulfilled and it will be. Israel will inherit the land.

Did you read the verses I included in my reply to you? They clearly state that the children of the flesh (which the Jews are), simply being the physical seed of Abraham, does not make them children of the promise. Regarding the blessings of God's covenant to the nation of Israel, they were conditional. In Jos 24:19 -20 God warned the Jews they would not be forgiven for spiritual indiscretions - which indiscretions they chose to commit anyway and were judged accordingly. Regarding the "land", if by it you mean the land of the Israel of this world, since this entire world is to be destroyed by God, it cannot be the eternal one that God had made promise of.

Rom 9:7-8 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Jos 24:19-20 KJV] 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

[Rev 21:1-2 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.