Is the human soul immortal?

[Pilgrimshope]

Imho, the Rich Man and Lazarus story in Luke 16:19-31 is probably a parable.

Consider these points:
1. People don't go to torment for being rich and having good things. God blesses people with good things all the time. That's a problem if they later go to torment for their blessings.

2. People don't receive salvation, or go to Abraham's side, for being a pitiful beggar.

3. While completely engulfed in flames, the rich man carried on an intelligible conversation with Abraham? No mention of weeping, wailing, or gnashing of teeth here.

4. Had the rich man even seen Abraham before? They didn't have photographs or oil paintings back then. How did he even know who Abraham was?

5. Why would dipping the tip of a finger in cool water to cool his tongue be his one and only request? Shouldn't he have been begging to be pulled from the fire?

6. Abraham said, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." which is false. Jesus Christ Himself rose from the dead and God requires everyone to believe that yet Abraham said no one will believe someone who rose from the dead? I'm sorry but resurrection is the main pillar of Christianity.

As you can see, there are many problems with allowing the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus to be literal. I just can't accept that.

“Imho, the Rich Man and Lazarus story in Luke 16:19-31 is probably a parable.”

what do you consider a parable to be ? And what’s he teaching about there ?

“People don't go to torment for being rich and having good things. God blesses people with good things all the time. That's a problem if they later go to torment for their blessings.”

well remember he passed by the beggar every day and didn’t share he was a lover of those things. We can’t serve things and God.

So it’s not just that he had nice things his garments also hold a clue and the fact that the beggar was laying at his gate needing help

“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why didn’t he help the poor man ? I’d say he probably fits in here honestly

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

….Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-42, 45-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your right having things isn’t a curse to damnation , but having things and being greedy and refusing to help those in need who are before you in life is a different story.

“While completely engulfed in flames, the rich man carried on an intelligible conversation with Abraham?”

yeah exactly he was conscious in his spiritual body and in torment and well aware of things. I don’t think that there’s not a repeat of the same words matters there though he’s on torment plainly that’s what the phrase “ weeping and gnashing of teeth expresses “

do you interpret that “parable “ to mean the dead aren’t conscious ? That to res no such place as hell where people are tormented ? Or that there’s no such place as paradise with Abraham ? Or that God doesn’t have the right to save a beggar if Thats his Will ?

“ I will have mercy upon whom I will “

or do you think we should just deem it a useles parable and ignore it when thinking about the afterlife ? It does t really Matter if we think it’s a parable or not what’s the message though is what matters ?


Jesus is teaching us something we couldn’t understand without what he’s saying. That’s really true of the whole gospel and every parable they all have meaning this one though is a teaching not literal account of two men and also not a parable it’s a teaching in my own opinion . But parables are also

It’s meaning really is sort of clear to me anyways but parables are the same

Parables are like this

“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

(that’s a parable , and this is what it meant )


and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

the enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world;

and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire;

so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:24-30, 36-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they are important spiritual truth the explaination isn’t another parable it’s the understanding in the parable

 

[EloyCraft]

Paul taught that his body was a body of death. Its members serve a law that he doesn't will. Paul asks who can save him from this body of death. Jesus of course.

If a body of death requires salvation then a body that isn't of death is what we are made for.
If our body always died and never experienced life without death, why does death sting,?
You don't miss what you never knew.

 

[montana123]

God’s Word declares that “the soul that sinneth it shall die” (Ezek 18:4, 20). When a man dies, “his breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish” (Psa. 146:4). God told Adam, “In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen. 2:17). It was not merely Adam’s body that during that thousand-year day died, but Adam himself—the human soul or being died in every respect. That which is immortal is not subject to death; it is death-proof, indestructible. But Adam was mortal, hence could die. The Hebrew word translated “soul” is found hundreds of times in the Bible. Surely if the human soul were immortal God would have said so at least once! The term “immortal soul” is not found in the Bible. There is a difference between everlasting life and immortality. Immortality is only for those in heaven who are of the Divine nature. Everlasting life will never be possessed by any of the human race except as a gift from God. Space will not permit a further discussion here.

The human soul will live forever either with God or not with God.

The Bible says all spirits go back to God who gave them and that is regardless of how the person acted on earth so whether they go to heaven or to hell they will not retain their spirit.

The flesh is put off the saints and they will receive a glorified body.

The flesh rots away in the grave but the Bible says that the wicked their worm never dies which means they will feel the affect of the flesh for eternity which they will feel the fire as the flesh feels the fire.

The saints will be a soul with a glorified body.

The wicked will be a soul that will feel the affects of the flesh.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

There are souls in heaven.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul cannot die while on earth.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We know what is plainly written - Adam died after 930 years of separation from the Garden and God (He no longer walked with them in the Garden = Effect of SIN in them)

If atonement covered Adams sin then why did Christ kicked them out of the Garden and His Presence?
If atonement of the blood of sheep, bulls and goats could wash away our sins then why did Christ have to come and die on cross???

Adam and Eve were DEAD in SIN the moment they ate the forbidden fruit - just as God said: "In the Day you eat - you die"

Had the sacrificial lamb that God clothed Adam & Eve with made complete atonement then they would not of died 930 years later
AFTER the death that they died the very same Day they ate the fruit.

The sting of Death is Sin - the sting of Death remains in our soul until the Day arises in our hearts and we are Born-Again by the SPIRIT (Wind/John ch3) and washed in His Blood = only then does our soul/spirit resurrect unto Eternal Life.

The sting of Death remains in our physical bodies until His Second Coming.

“Had the sacrificial lamb that God clothed Adam & Eve with made complete atonement then they would not of died 930 years later
AFTER the death that they died the very same Day they ate the fruit.”

yeah that’s why I made the point it was only a pattern until Christ shed his blood . Why I was saying it allows them to live short lives in order to come to repentance …..atonement is like this

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬

Same thing adam was told right ?

“For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭17:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the blood is shed because mans sin requires tbier death , Gods mercy provides propitiation to cover this death sentence death if fulfilled and the sinner lives on

It’s method in the ot is a pattern for what’s Christ would do which God fire ordained from the beginning the ot provided temporal life for a sinner rather than immediate death so they could repent through his mercy and forbearance making atonement to cover thier death sentance the blood of animals was only a pattern until Christ shed his eternal blood it provided what short lived we had then before eternal life came

“or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭4:28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The animal died to fulfill the word of death by sin form the person that’s what atonement is look up the term “propitiation “ you’ll see it appeases Gods word saying “ whoever sins must die “ through atonement taking an innocent animal and transferring the sin upon the sin upon the animal and putting the animal to death in place of the sinner to appease death and Gods command of death for sin

again though the old sacrificial system is a fore pattern for Christ and his sacrifice which covers all the sacrifices in the law his blood would be shed for all sin later , until then a temoorwl
Pattern was set in place to give men what little life we have on earth

anyways brother , God bless

“and all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Nehemiah6]

What do you think(according to scripture of course) happens to the soul of a man when he dies?

Already addressed. Nonetheless, the spirit and soul depart from the body at death. The souls and spirits of those who are "in Christ" go directly to be with Christ in Heaven, e.g. Stephen the first martyr (Acts 7 & 8). However, the souls of the unsaved (those who are not "in Christ") go to Sheol/Hades to await their final judgment: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb 9:27)
[Note: The term Sheol has been replaced by Hades in the NT, and Hades has even been personified in the book of Revelation (along with Death). Unfortunately, you will read "hell" for Hades in the KJB].

For those who are believers, we know from Scripture that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And all the saints who have departed since Christ ascended to Heaven are now with Him in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24). They are grouped as "the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven".

This is not rocket science. Christians have know these truths for over 2.000 years. But all of a sudden the trolls and the naysayers have come along to deny fundamental Christian truths.

 

[ewq1938]

[QUOTE="montana123, post: 4817943, member: 311251"

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul cannot die while on earth.[/QUOTE]


It will die in the lake of fire though.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

remember in revelation this part

“And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal:
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then later in the book

“And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:

and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name,

stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then later after all is said and done

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it…
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just some scripture to consider regarding the sea in the book of revelation

notice how this part

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:

and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name,

stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

fits with this part

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭

and they are standing in heaven before the throne in the vision he sees when they are standing upon the sea of glass ? And then others ( the dead ) are in the sea and come out in the end before the judgement.

that’s what I was saying the other day how revelation is not a singular vision but several that overlap.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Already addressed. Nonetheless, the spirit and soul depart from the body at death. The souls and spirits of those who are "in Christ" go directly to be with Christ in Heaven, e.g. Stephen the first martyr (Acts 7 & 8). However, the souls of the unsaved (those who are not "in Christ") go to Sheol/Hades to await their final judgment: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb 9:27)
[Note: The term Sheol has been replaced by Hades in the NT, and Hades has even been personified in the book of Revelation (along with Death). Unfortunately, you will read "hell" for Hades in the KJB].

For those who are believers, we know from Scripture that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And all the saints who have departed since Christ ascended to Heaven are now with Him in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24). They are grouped as "the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven".

This is not rocket science. Christians have know these truths for over 2.000 years. But all of a sudden the trolls and the naysayers have come along to deny fundamental Christian truths.

lots of agreement but who are these ?

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and do they differ from these

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

 

[ewq1938]

lots of agreement but who are these ?

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and do they differ from these

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

Christ is talking about the second death there, not the first death since every Christian of the past has died.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Christ is talking about the second death there, not the first death since every Christian of the past has died.

yeah we are credited with christs death through baptism

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s not about our body of flesh it’s already appointed to die , we aren’t our flesh though we are the living spirit inside . If we go into death with Jesus we’re just leaving our flesh behind when we die, it’s not something we’re going to experience like others do they will go into death in thier sins and wait until judgement to be raised up. Not having or taken of christs death

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can partake of christs death covering the first and accept the gospel
Which is the judgement which precedes the second death and we don’t have to go into death with the body of death. We can go with the spirit tonthe lord rather than the grave with the body

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s just this same thing offered through Christ and why we’re called to walk in the spirit

“and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is very different from this

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t have to do that we’re offered repentance and remission of sins so when we die we will go to be with the lord and. Or go into death like or body must to fulfill the faith of baptisms promise of remission of sins and our bodies death

 

[Runningman]

“Imho, the Rich Man and Lazarus story in Luke 16:19-31 is probably a parable.”

what do you consider a parable to be ? And what’s he teaching about there ?

It's basically saying do go to others or you'll be punished. It's kind of a hellfire sermon meant to scare people straight. Many things in it aren't literally true though, leading me to believe the story is meant to be a little dramatic in order to catch the readers attention.

“People don't go to torment for being rich and having good things. God blesses people with good things all the time. That's a problem if they later go to torment for their blessings.”

well remember he passed by the beggar every day and didn’t share he was a lover of those things. We can’t serve things and God.

So it’s not just that he had nice things his garments also hold a clue and the fact that the beggar was laying at his gate needing help

“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham explained the reasoning behind their judgement,

"25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Rich man had good things so get got torment. Lazarus had evil things and is now comforted.

Why didn’t he help the poor man ? I’d say he probably fits in here honestly

Where does it say the rich man refused to feed the beggar?

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

….Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-42, 45-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your right having things isn’t a curse to damnation , but having things and being greedy and refusing to help those in need who are before you in life is a different story.‬‬

I agree but that doesn't seem to apply to the rich man. I don't see where he was ever cruel or refused to feed the beggar in Luke 16:19-31.

“While completely engulfed in flames, the rich man carried on an intelligible conversation with Abraham?”

yeah exactly he was conscious in his spiritual body and in torment and well aware of things. I don’t think that there’s not a repeat of the same words matters there though he’s on torment plainly that’s what the phrase “ weeping and gnashing of teeth expresses “

do you interpret that “parable “ to mean the dead aren’t conscious ? That to res no such place as hell where people are tormented ? Or that there’s no such place as paradise with Abraham ? Or that God doesn’t have the right to save a beggar if Thats his Will ?

Most verses about the unsaved lost say they are destroyed or perish.

Jesus is teaching us something we couldn’t understand without what he’s saying. That’s really true of the whole gospel and every parable they all have meaning this one though is a teaching not literal account of two men and also not a parable it’s a teaching in my own opinion . But parables are also

It’s meaning really is sort of clear to me anyways but parables are the same

Parables are like this

“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

(that’s a parable , and this is what it meant )


and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

the enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world;

and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire;

so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:24-30, 36-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they are important spiritual truth the explaination isn’t another parable it’s the understanding in the parable

I just don't see any easy way to take the rich man and Lazarus story literally.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It's basically saying do go to others or you'll be punished. It's kind of a hellfire sermon meant to scare people straight. Many things in it aren't literally true though, leading me to believe the story is meant to be a little dramatic in order to catch the readers attention.



Abraham explained the reasoning behind their judgement,

"25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Rich man had good things so get got torment. Lazarus had evil things and is now comforted.



Where does it say the rich man refused to feed the beggar?



I agree but that doesn't seem to apply to the rich man. I don't see where he was ever cruel or refused to feed the beggar in Luke 16:19-31.



Most verses about the unsaved lost say they are destroyed or perish.





I just don't see any easy way to take the rich man and Lazarus story literally.

“It's basically saying do go to others or you'll be punished. It's kind of a hellfire sermon meant to scare people straight.”

so your saying Jesus is using untruths to scare people ? And it has nothing to do with what happens after we die ? And there’s no such thing as hell?


“I agree but that doesn't seem to apply to the rich man. I don't see where he was ever cruel or refused to feed the beggar in Luke 16:19-31.”

well What would it matter since it’s not literal and doesn’t mean anything resembling what it says anyways 🙂 seems Like we could do that with everything in the Bible just say that’s not what it means …..

it seems we just see this one differently and that’s ok

 

[Runningman]

“It's basically saying do go to others or you'll be punished. It's kind of a hellfire sermon meant to scare people straight.”

so your saying Jesus is using untruths to scare people ? And it has nothing to do with what happens after we die ? And there’s no such thing as hell?

I meant that since I think it's a parable it isn't literally true. Like people are not literally wheat or tares or sheep or goats.

“I agree but that doesn't seem to apply to the rich man. I don't see where he was ever cruel or refused to feed the beggar in Luke 16:19-31.”

well What would it matter since it’s not literal and doesn’t mean anything resembling what it says anyways 🙂 seems Like we could do that with everything in the Bible just say that’s not what it means …..

it seems we just see this one differently and that’s ok

True that's okay.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I meant that since I think it's a parable it isn't literally true. Like people are not literally wheat or tares or sheep or goats.



True that's okay.

“I meant that since I think it's a parable it isn't literally true. Like people are not literally wheat or tares or sheep or goats.”

yes I understand but there is no parabolic figure there is what I’m saying it’s not wheat dying going to hell and bekng conscious ect it’s much more like the explaination of the wheat and tares parable is my position

but yes I think it’s okay also. I’ve actually been doing some thinking and praying about this place and it’s value for me and my value being here for others. There’s a lot of contention here and not really sure anyone ever moves our belief towards one another which isn’t fruitful really on my belief

if i Disappear brother it’s been a pleasure Meeting and discussing with you !! God bless and keep you !

 

[Runningman]

“I meant that since I think it's a parable it isn't literally true. Like people are not literally wheat or tares or sheep or goats.”

yes I understand but there is no parabolic figure there is what I’m saying it’s not wheat dying going to hell and bekng conscious ect it’s much more like the explaination of the wheat and tares parable is my position

but yes I think it’s okay also. I’ve actually been doing some thinking and praying about this place and it’s value for me and my value being here for others. There’s a lot of contention here and not really sure anyone ever moves our belief towards one another which isn’t fruitful really on my belief

if i Disappear brother it’s been a pleasure Meeting and discussing with you !! God bless and keep you !

I understand. I normally take this place in doses. I think I post about 10 times a day, usually less. I hope you don’t completely disappear because I like you and you are quite thorough with your responses, always posting a lot of scripture, and that’s a great example for all of us to follow. Anyway I know you will do what works best for you. By the way I will probably be online significantly less within the next month and onward because I’ll be moving to Vietnam. God bless.

 

[Nehemiah6]

lots of agreement but who are these ? “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” ‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This refers to the resurrection of ALL the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture. So those souls and spirits which are presently in Heaven will be brought to earth by Christ, in order to receive their immortal and glorified bodies, and will then return with Christ to Heaven. "Shall rise first" is in relation to the Rapture, which will come next, but within nanoseconds. So the Resurrection precedes the Rapture.

and do they differ from these “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” ‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

This corresponds to John 11:25,26: Jesus said unto her [Martha], I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

These sayings cannot be interpreted as Christians never experiencing physical death. They simply mean that believers will live eternally with Christ (even if they die physically). So the Resurrection/Rapture will fulfil this.

 

[Mem]

NOt much of what we talk about in the Bible especially the New Testament is based on logic it’s all based on faith though.

This is true, but even atheist have to have faith in they way they see things.

but we don’t have to agree I suppose , this forum spins in circles a lot

I don't like arguing with you, you've always been so brotherly to me.

I'll just let it be with this verse:
1Peter 3:15 But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect,

The Greek for defense is apologia which is apo-from logos-intelligent reasoning... I do need to work a lot more on the gentleness and respect though.

God bless and keep you, brother, and give you His Shalom.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I understand. I normally take this place in doses. I think I post about 10 times a day, usually less. I hope you don’t completely disappear because I like you and you are quite thorough with your responses, always posting a lot of scripture, and that’s a great example for all of us to follow. Anyway I know you will do what works best for you. By the way I will probably be online significantly less within the next month and onward because I’ll be moving to Vietnam. God bless.

be blessed brother in your new home !

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This refers to the resurrection of ALL the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture. So those souls and spirits which are presently in Heaven will be brought to earth by Christ, in order to receive their immortal and glorified bodies, and will then return with Christ to Heaven. "Shall rise first" is in relation to the Rapture, which will come next, but within nanoseconds. So the Resurrection precedes the Rapture.
This corresponds to John 11:25,26: Jesus said unto her [Martha], I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

These sayings cannot be interpreted as Christians never experiencing physical death. They simply mean that believers will live eternally with Christ (even if they die physically). So the Resurrection/Rapture will fulfil this.

“These sayings cannot be interpreted as Christians never experiencing physical death. They simply mean that believers will live eternally with Christ (even if they die physically). So the Resurrection/Rapture will fulfil this.”

Yeah I have never said any different we’re all Appointed to physical death. So yeah there’s never been any disagreement there.

what about this group ? With what bodies did they rise up ?

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is that thier old dead decayed body that rose up or is it thier new spiritual resurrected body ?

“it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and did they die a second time and return to the grave and will later be resurrected again ? Or is there maybe something more to it than your thinking ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is true, but even atheist have to have faith in they way they see things.



I don't like arguing with you, you've always been so brotherly to me.

I'll just let it be with this verse:
1Peter 3:15 But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect,

The Greek for defense is apologia which is apo-from logos-intelligent reasoning... I do need to work a lot more on the gentleness and respect though.

God bless and keep you, brother, and give you His Shalom.

yeah I think sometimes if people don’t agree with us we take that as disrespect. I’m not arguing with you brother sometimes I don’t agree with other peoples thinking like everyone else here but I can’t recall ever disrespecting anyone To my own knowledge anyways.

I think if people don’t agree some take that as being disrespected i personally don’t I think it’s when people start insulting one another and that happens a lot here. I’ve never taken any personal insults against anyone though , often have a different view though and it could be perceived as disrespect

but yeah I don’t think we’re arguing at least I didn’t lol