Is it the Christian's responsibility to fight "territorial spirits?"
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What do you say it means? Luke 4:18 is the gospel. People are not set free automatically. Demons did not flee from Jesus just because He was there. He commanded them. The 70 testified to casting out demons. Lord Jesus said that it's no big deal. Ephesians 6 and 2 Corinthians 10 expand on the spiritual war that we are in.
If that is so, why is God's kingdom not here already? We've been praying "Your Kingdom come" for 2,000 years. Was Lord Jesus messing with us when He told us to pray? How come God's will is still not being done here on earth? We've been asking for that for 2,000 years also.
L
Live4Him2
Guest
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," (Rev. 1:5)
It doesn't matter what I think it means. What you say it means doesn't make any sense. First of all it says: Whatever you bind on earth. Territorial spirits aren't of the earth. The passage doesn't say anything even remotely connected to territorial spirits. You're desperately grasping at straws.
That's not what it reads.
It reads "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." There is a direct connection between what is done on the earth to what is done in heaven. In Christ, this is the standard: that we not only affect the earth but we also affect heaven.
Christ was seen as the Ladder of Jacob:
Genesis 28:12 "And he (Jacob) dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it."
Then Jesus said, "And he (Jesus) saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man."
Now, we have no issues with angels descending from heaven by the will of Christ, but it also says that angels "ascend". And here, angels are simply "messengers", they can be men or spirit beings. Furthermore, we have accounts of men being called up to heaven to receive of Christ and then return to the world to deliver the message.
My point is: in Christ, we are connected to heaven and earth, just as He is connected to heaven and earth. This is the framework from which Jesus spoke when He said: Matt 16:19 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
There are myriad correlations between what we do in the natural affecting change in the spiritual: forgiving others their sins and then the Father forgiving ours; storing up treasures in heaven, not on the earth; keeping our eyes away from sin so that we will be "full of light"; resisting divisions so that we all may be one, etc. First the natural, then the spiritual. This should be a reoccurring theme in the lives of all believers.
well
when the gospel was frst preached the holy spirit told Paul and his bunch of missionaries NOT to go into Asia. At the time, there were probably reasons for that
Now you can, but its still very difficult to preach there.
However, that doesnt mean we dont keep building up our own faith and resisting Satan. And there will come a time when the gospel can be preached freely in places where it was difficult before. GOd needs to do some prep before we can go somewhere cos Hes looking out for us too.
when the gospel was frst preached the holy spirit told Paul and his bunch of missionaries NOT to go into Asia. At the time, there were probably reasons for that
Now you can, but its still very difficult to preach there.
However, that doesnt mean we dont keep building up our own faith and resisting Satan. And there will come a time when the gospel can be preached freely in places where it was difficult before. GOd needs to do some prep before we can go somewhere cos Hes looking out for us too.
Amen.
Prince refers to the Principality or 'higher being" that rules over the kings (which are men).
Jesus being the Prince and King above and over all. That's my perspective.
L
Live4Him2
Guest
You are correct.
Matthew 18:18 has absolutely nothing to do with binding territorial spirits.
Here it is, in context:
Matthew chapter 18
[15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[19] Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
[20] For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
[21] Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
[22] Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
[23] Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
[24] And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
[25] But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
[26] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[27] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[28] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
[29] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[30] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[31] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
[32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
[33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
[34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[35] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
The context here is definitely one of forgiveness vs. unforgiveness.
In other words, if someone meets the requirements necessary to obtain forgiveness, then we can tell them that they're forgiven or "loosed" (vs. 27) from that debt.
On the other hand, if someone refuses to meet the requirements necessary to obtain forgiveness, then we can tell them that they're still "bound" in that sin.
It's basically the same thing that Jesus said here:
"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." (John 20:23)
Again, based upon someone's response to the message that we preach, they are either "loosed" from their sins in that they've been "remitted" or they remain "bound" in their sins in that they've been "retained".
Well, I did not address that. I believe it is a complicated issue.
We know there are spirits that contend for areas of dominance, like those in Daniel (princes of Persia and Greece).
However, I DO NOT believe that the saints are called to rid the areas of them. The ground we "fight for" is in the mind of those under the influence of the spirits. And just to be clear: once a dominant way of thinking is fully established in a region, the demonic does not need to attend the people for their lies to continue in perpetuity. Much of what we call "culture" today is really how the demonic twisted the truth of God into a lie and created a tradition out of these lies.
For example, if I am speaking to Romanians or an area where there are many Slavic poor people, I know I have to address the issue of "adoption" in light of the Truth, not in the way they understand it in their lexicon. In their experience, their local orphans are taken into others' homes because they were pitied by the adoptive parents. There is this over-arch of first needing to be pitiable before being acceptable by God. And then, once adopted, the best experience is limited to having one's needs met. From that position it is difficult to move them to understanding the need for maturing to take up more responsibility in their Father's business. (As an aside, this is often why missionaries keep baptizing the same people in subsequent trips: they have not taught the people the need to mature, but that's another issue).
So, to address the issue of a pitiable understanding of adoption I might teach an example from history, where Julius Caesar, although having a son by Cleopatra (Caesarion), knew that he would never be accepted by the Romans. Instead, he adopted his great nephew, Octavian, to carry on the affairs from the Roman throne. This is what a king does: he adopts and then commits the affairs of the kingdom into the hands of the child as if the child were his own. So, then we teach from Christ's example: Christ IS the Son of God. When we are adopted by the Father we are placed into the only Begotten of God not as an act of pity by as an act of succession whereby the affairs of the Kingdom are entrusted to the Son. In Christ we are led by the Spirit of God in all we do in the Kingdom. By the power of the Spirit we do what the Father shows us to do.
So, I don't agree with the idea that we are to rid territories of spirits. It is likely we will not be given the authority by God to do so. However, I have seen whole households released from a territorial spirit because they rejected the evil traditions that were considered normal and put their trust in the Lord. The people are still within the territories of the evil spirits but are no longer under their influence: they are sanctified by the Lord and their minds are renewed.
Whenever I am sent to an area I take time to discern the ruling spirits in that area. If a group has a village soothsayer then I look for witchcraft and magic thinking. If a group looks up to a person who presents as smart or learned beyond the common person then I look for the spirit of Greece. If they are under a warlord then I look for fear and manipulation. If they have deep Roman Catholic roots I look for shame and polytheism, etc. Then, once discerned, I can understand how the people's minds have been bound by their own traditions. It informs my ministry and how I might address the issues in their thoughts.
I'm sorry but I simply don't read long wordy posts. If it can't be said in a simple straightforward fashion it's nothing I'm interested in.
L
Live4Him2
Guest
As a witness to this conversation, I think that your response here is terribly dismissive.
I mean, you asked him a question, and he took the time to explain his answer to you, so the least that you can do is read it.
I read his response, and I thought that he did a good job of explaining what he actually believes.
As far as his explanation goes, I actually agree with him that we're not so much fighting against the territorial spirits themselves, but rather seeking to set people free from the lies which they've deeply rooted in any particular culture or region via the gospel.
L
Live4Him2
Guest
^^^THIS^^^
Some time back in 1999, a Christian friend of mine at the time sought to convince me that we ought to be preaching on the streets, and I concurred. I had never done so before, and he definitely had more boldness than I did at that time, but off we went.
For our initial street preaching encounter, my friend felt compelled to preach on Ferry Street in Newark, NJ, so off we went. After he set up the sound system (speakers on poles, etc.), he handed me the microphone, and said "here". Again, this was my first time preaching on the streets, but off I went.
Without knowing why at that time, I spent the entirety of my time preaching against not only Roman Catholicism that day, but, more specifically, against any sort of devotion to Mary. I honestly had no idea why I was doing that because that wasn't my normal way of witnessing to people. When I finished preaching, my friend took the microphone, and he likewise preached along the very same lines.
Well, the people there basically wanted to kill us...and I'm NOT exaggerating.
As we returned to that same location to preach on consequent weeks, our preaching and their response were the same.
Why am I telling you this?
Well, after this had gone on for about two months, I was reading the Sunday newspaper one day and there was a feature article in there about that exact part of Ferry Street in Newark, NJ. It seems that the area was predominantly Portuguese, and that the people there were steeped in Mary worship and a belief in the apparitions which allegedly occurred at Fatima in Portugal.
As soon as I read that, I not only thought to myself, "Okay, that's why they basically wanted to kill us", but, more importantly, I totally felt that God himself was the one who led us to that area and put that specific message in our mouths.
In essence, what I'm saying is this:
There was definitely some sort of "territorial spirit" at work there, and although we didn't fight against that spirit directly ourselves, we did fight against the lie which it had implanted firmly in the hearts and minds of many individuals in that region via the preaching of the true gospel.
That’s called “stepping in it”.
. It’s good to know, in our ignorance, the Lord has our back.I know a man, young, who began railing against a territorial spirit in Africa. He fell down, unable to move and his breathing stopped. An older believer recognized the issue, threw himself on the man, and asked the Lord for mercy. The man regained his breath and footing. Here, he went out on his own against the spirit even though the Holy Spirit had warned him not to.
L
Live4Him2
Guest
Yep, and, in hindsight, that wasn't the only time that we "stepped in it". In other words, we were always smart enough to pray before going out to preach, and I believe that the Lord regularly led us to the right places and put the right message in our mouths.That’s called “stepping in it”.
I know a man, young, who began railing against a territorial spirit in Africa. He fell down, unable to move and his breathing stopped. An older believer recognized the issue, threw himself on the man, and asked the Lord for mercy. The man regained his breath and footing. Here, he went out on his own against the spirit even though the Holy Spirit had warned him not to.
Anyhow, in think that we see a good example of a "territorial spirit" in the book of Acts in what transpired between Paul and the worshippers of Diana:
Acts chapter 19
[23] And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.
[24] For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
[25] Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
[26] Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
[27] So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
[28] And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
[29] And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.
[30] And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not.
[31] And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theatre.
[32] Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
[33] And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defence unto the people.
[34] But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
[35] And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?
[36] Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly.
[37] For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.
[38] Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another.
[39] But if ye inquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.
[40] For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse.
[41] And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.
Yes indeed. And we know Paul was forbidden by the Holy Spirit to go to Asia. Had he gone any way we might have never heard of Paul.
L
Live4Him2
Guest
Yeah, we need to go through the doors which the Lord has actually opened for us, but, even then, there will be many adversaries.
"But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost. For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries." (I Corinthians 16:8-9)