Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
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Hi Freegrace2,
Yes I`ll step up to the plate to bat for pre-trib.
First let me clarify that I dodn`t believe in men becoming female, (bride/wife). It is a symbol of God`s relationship with Israel and all through the OT.
So let`s just look at `Does the Body of Christ go to the highest heaven, (& stay there)?`
`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE....` (Rev. 3: 21)
So we think, `What does God`s word say about Christ OWN THRONE?` Now we know that the Father -
`seated Him at His right hand FAR ABOVE all principality and power and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come, and He put ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET....` (Eph. 1: 20 - 22)
The Lord`s authority (throne) then is ABOVE ALL.
Above where Lucifer ruled in the angelic realm.
Above where the angels reside.
Above where Satan and his fallen angels have usurped, (Principalities and powers)
Above the kings of this earth.
Above every name that is named in this age and the one to come.
The Lord Jesus Christ is -
King of Glory. (Ps. 24: 7)
King of heaven. (Dan. 4: 37)
King of the Ages. (1 Tim. 1: 17)
King of Righteousness. (Heb. 7: 1 – 3)
King of Israel. (John 1 : 49)
King of the Jews. (Matt. 2: 2)
King of the Nations. (Rev. 15: 3)
And finally King of Kings..... (Rev. 19: 16)
So where do you see God`s word says this supreme one who is pre-eminent over all, rules from, His seat of power and authority? For where the Lord`s great throne is FAR ABOVE ALL is where His BODY will be also.
(BTW I`ll address your scriptures in another post soon.)
regards, Marilyn.
Yes I`ll step up to the plate to bat for pre-trib.
First let me clarify that I dodn`t believe in men becoming female, (bride/wife). It is a symbol of God`s relationship with Israel and all through the OT.
So let`s just look at `Does the Body of Christ go to the highest heaven, (& stay there)?`
`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE....` (Rev. 3: 21)
So we think, `What does God`s word say about Christ OWN THRONE?` Now we know that the Father -
`seated Him at His right hand FAR ABOVE all principality and power and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come, and He put ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET....` (Eph. 1: 20 - 22)
The Lord`s authority (throne) then is ABOVE ALL.
Above where Lucifer ruled in the angelic realm.
Above where the angels reside.
Above where Satan and his fallen angels have usurped, (Principalities and powers)
Above the kings of this earth.
Above every name that is named in this age and the one to come.
The Lord Jesus Christ is -
King of Glory. (Ps. 24: 7)
King of heaven. (Dan. 4: 37)
King of the Ages. (1 Tim. 1: 17)
King of Righteousness. (Heb. 7: 1 – 3)
King of Israel. (John 1 : 49)
King of the Jews. (Matt. 2: 2)
King of the Nations. (Rev. 15: 3)
And finally King of Kings..... (Rev. 19: 16)
So where do you see God`s word says this supreme one who is pre-eminent over all, rules from, His seat of power and authority? For where the Lord`s great throne is FAR ABOVE ALL is where His BODY will be also.
(BTW I`ll address your scriptures in another post soon.)
regards, Marilyn.
Hello to you Marilyn
I sure hope everyone understands this.
At this point in human history, the VAST majority of "the Body of Christ" is ALREADY in heaven. Why? Because they died. And they have nowhere else to go.
However, Jesus' throne will exist in the Millennial kingdom. At present, He sits at the right of His Father's throne, in heaven.
Rev 3:21 - To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
So you see, Jesus is not yet on His own throne. That will occur when He "rules the nations with a rod of iron".
Rev 12:5 - She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Again, the "throne" mentioned here is God's throne, not Jesus'.
Jesus rules the nations ON EARTH during the Millennium.
Jesus comes back to earth as the King of kings, and Lord of lords, to rule the nations.
I've just shown from Scripture that currently He sits with His Father's throne in heaven.
I would greatly appreciate that.
And the same to you. FG
I sure hope everyone understands this.
At this point in human history, the VAST majority of "the Body of Christ" is ALREADY in heaven. Why? Because they died. And they have nowhere else to go.
However, Jesus' throne will exist in the Millennial kingdom. At present, He sits at the right of His Father's throne, in heaven.
Rev 3:21 - To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
So you see, Jesus is not yet on His own throne. That will occur when He "rules the nations with a rod of iron".
Rev 12:5 - She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Again, the "throne" mentioned here is God's throne, not Jesus'.
Jesus rules the nations ON EARTH during the Millennium.
Jesus comes back to earth as the King of kings, and Lord of lords, to rule the nations.
I've just shown from Scripture that currently He sits with His Father's throne in heaven.
I would greatly appreciate that.
And the same to you. FG
Hello to you Marilyn
I sure hope everyone understands this.
At this point in human history, the VAST majority of "the Body of Christ" is ALREADY in heaven. Why? Because they died. And they have nowhere else to go.
However, Jesus' throne will exist in the Millennial kingdom. At present, He sits at the right of His Father's throne, in heaven.
Rev 3:21 - To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
So you see, Jesus is not yet on His own throne. That will occur when He "rules the nations with a rod of iron".
Rev 12:5 - She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Again, the "throne" mentioned here is God's throne, not Jesus'.
Jesus rules the nations ON EARTH during the Millennium.
Jesus comes back to earth as the King of kings, and Lord of lords, to rule the nations.
I've just shown from Scripture that currently He sits with His Father's throne in heaven.
I would greatly appreciate that.
And the same to you. FG
I sure hope everyone understands this.
At this point in human history, the VAST majority of "the Body of Christ" is ALREADY in heaven. Why? Because they died. And they have nowhere else to go.
However, Jesus' throne will exist in the Millennial kingdom. At present, He sits at the right of His Father's throne, in heaven.
Rev 3:21 - To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
So you see, Jesus is not yet on His own throne. That will occur when He "rules the nations with a rod of iron".
Rev 12:5 - She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Again, the "throne" mentioned here is God's throne, not Jesus'.
Jesus rules the nations ON EARTH during the Millennium.
Jesus comes back to earth as the King of kings, and Lord of lords, to rule the nations.
I've just shown from Scripture that currently He sits with His Father's throne in heaven.
I would greatly appreciate that.
And the same to you. FG
Divine Procession.
Godhead - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,
Father - with the initial movement of the Father;
Son - the administration of the Son;
Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.
Thus when the Father appoints His Son OVER ALL, it refers to His authority (under the Father). (John 5: 27)
And that authority is from the highest realm where He judges the World System and fallen angels in the trib, and the millennium.
The Body of Christ is there also. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3, Rev. 2: 26 & 27)
Yes the Lord rules in the millenium however there is no where that says He will rule ON the earth. The Lord will rule THROUGH Israel as promised in the OT. The Lord has a glorified body and sin, sickness and death could not be on the earth if He was physically ruling there. It is for Israel to rule the nations. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)
Let us not bring the Lord down to `His footstool,` to be His great seat of power and authority, but let us lift Him up and may the eyes of our understanding be enlightened to know Him as the Pre-eminent one, the Worthy One to rule OVER ALL of God`s great kingdom. And not just on this speck of `dirt,` so minuet in all of God`s great kingdom - third heaven, the Universe and the earth.
regards, Marilyn.
So far, the verses I have shared haven't been addressed. Nor have you shared any verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
Given the immense emphasis on 'the rapture', which includes a trip to heaven, all before the Tribulation, one would think that there would be clear verses showing such a scenario.
But there isn't any such verse. Doesn't that give you pause? I was brought up pretrib rapture. It wasn't until about 10 years ago that I was challenged by a friend to see what the Bible actually SAYS. Kinda like the Bereans of Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
So, when I applied this study method of verification to what pretribbers claim, I was surprised to discover that there are no verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, ever. As I studied more, I found that there is just one resurrection for the saved, and ALL believers will participate in that. 1 Cor 15:23
Since Rev 20:5 plainly calls the resurrection of the saved the FIRST resurrection, and refers to the single resurrection of the unsaved to occur 1,000 years later, which is after the Millennial reign, I was hooked.
Given the immense emphasis on 'the rapture', which includes a trip to heaven, all before the Tribulation, one would think that there would be clear verses showing such a scenario.
But there isn't any such verse. Doesn't that give you pause? I was brought up pretrib rapture. It wasn't until about 10 years ago that I was challenged by a friend to see what the Bible actually SAYS. Kinda like the Bereans of Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
So, when I applied this study method of verification to what pretribbers claim, I was surprised to discover that there are no verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, ever. As I studied more, I found that there is just one resurrection for the saved, and ALL believers will participate in that. 1 Cor 15:23
Since Rev 20:5 plainly calls the resurrection of the saved the FIRST resurrection, and refers to the single resurrection of the unsaved to occur 1,000 years later, which is after the Millennial reign, I was hooked.
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L
Exactly.
Pre-tribbers not only don't know when Jesus is coming (even though he plainly told us that it's after the tribulation), they don't even know why he's coming.
He's coming to establish the kingdom of God right here on earth, and not to allegedly whisk anybody away to the third heaven.
As Paul said:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
We need glorified bodies because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption", and "the kingdom of God" is coming to this earth, even as Jesus taught his disciples to pray.
I mean, if people would just use their God-given brains, then this would be so obvious to them.
Think about it...
If "the kingdom of God" which we cannot inherit without glorified bodies was in heaven, then no saints are presently in heaven because no one has received their glorified body yet, but we know that there are saints presently in heaven because Jesus is going to bring them with him from heaven when he comes and descends from there to this earth.
Seriously, any pre-tribbers should be ashamed of themselves for believing the nonsense that they tenaciously hold to in spite of such obvious problems as the one that I just mentioned (and of host of others which have previously been mentioned as well).
Pre-tribbers not only don't know when Jesus is coming (even though he plainly told us that it's after the tribulation), they don't even know why he's coming.
He's coming to establish the kingdom of God right here on earth, and not to allegedly whisk anybody away to the third heaven.
As Paul said:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
We need glorified bodies because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption", and "the kingdom of God" is coming to this earth, even as Jesus taught his disciples to pray.
I mean, if people would just use their God-given brains, then this would be so obvious to them.
Think about it...
If "the kingdom of God" which we cannot inherit without glorified bodies was in heaven, then no saints are presently in heaven because no one has received their glorified body yet, but we know that there are saints presently in heaven because Jesus is going to bring them with him from heaven when he comes and descends from there to this earth.
Seriously, any pre-tribbers should be ashamed of themselves for believing the nonsense that they tenaciously hold to in spite of such obvious problems as the one that I just mentioned (and of host of others which have previously been mentioned as well).
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That is true.
That is false. Jesus shall call us up at the Pre-Trib Rapture to deliver us from the Wrath to come, glorify us and give us fine white linens, have us participate in Marriage and Marriage Feast, and then return to Earth with Him to reign with Him 1000 years.
You will be missing out on quite a bit, my friend.
Luke
21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.
21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
That is false. Jesus shall call us up at the Pre-Trib Rapture to deliver us from the Wrath to come, glorify us and give us fine white linens, have us participate in Marriage and Marriage Feast, and then return to Earth with Him to reign with Him 1000 years.
You will be missing out on quite a bit, my friend.
Luke
21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.
21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
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L
As a part of the bride of Christ, I can assure you that I won't be missing out on anything...except the pre-tribulation rapture deception that Jesus and others warned about.
As far as being delivered from the wrath to come is concerned, I've already shown from Revelation chapter 16 that Jesus still hasn't "come as a thief" during the timeframe between the 6th and 7th vials of the wrath of God being poured out. I won't bother posting it all again, in that I've already posted it more than once. Anybody who wants to can simply open their own Bible and see it right before their very own eyes for themselves. No need for anybody to quote me how God has not appointed us to wrath, either. I never said that he did. Instead, as he differentiated between the Israelites and the Egyptians during the ten plagues, so too will he differentiate between the saved and the unsaved as his wrath is being poured out.
Additionally, nowhere does the Bible state that the marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven. Instead, it merely says that the marriage supper of the Lamb has come, and the bride has made herself ready. Immediately thereafter, we see Jesus returning with his saints to this earth.
Furthermore, if you would just pause and think for a moment, then you should ask yourself a question such as this:
If the marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven, then how in the world are the tribulation saints going to partake of it if they're still here on earth?
Don't fool yourself into believing that they'll all die before Christ's alleged "third coming" (he only comes twice - Heb. 9:27) and therefore enter into the feast at some point in time in heaven.
As far as Luke's "escape" is concerned, compare it to the words of Paul:
I Thessalonians chapter 5
[1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
[6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
Those who "shall not escape" (vs. 3) are those who will not be ready when the Lord "comes as a thief in the night" (vs. 2).
Conversely, those who shall escape are those who will be ready when the Lord "comes as a thief in the night".
So, when is Jesus "coming as a thief"?
No need to guess because he flat out told us:
Revelation chapter 16
[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
[17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Again, between the pouring out of the sixth and seventh vials of the wrath of God, Jesus has NOT yet "come as a thief". For this reason, he is heard admonishing his disciples to "watch and keep their garments".
This is reality...unlike the pre-tribulation rapture farce.
P.S.
I cannot help but notice that you said nothing about why we need glorified bodies to begin with.
As far as being delivered from the wrath to come is concerned, I've already shown from Revelation chapter 16 that Jesus still hasn't "come as a thief" during the timeframe between the 6th and 7th vials of the wrath of God being poured out. I won't bother posting it all again, in that I've already posted it more than once. Anybody who wants to can simply open their own Bible and see it right before their very own eyes for themselves. No need for anybody to quote me how God has not appointed us to wrath, either. I never said that he did. Instead, as he differentiated between the Israelites and the Egyptians during the ten plagues, so too will he differentiate between the saved and the unsaved as his wrath is being poured out.
Additionally, nowhere does the Bible state that the marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven. Instead, it merely says that the marriage supper of the Lamb has come, and the bride has made herself ready. Immediately thereafter, we see Jesus returning with his saints to this earth.
Furthermore, if you would just pause and think for a moment, then you should ask yourself a question such as this:
If the marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven, then how in the world are the tribulation saints going to partake of it if they're still here on earth?
Don't fool yourself into believing that they'll all die before Christ's alleged "third coming" (he only comes twice - Heb. 9:27) and therefore enter into the feast at some point in time in heaven.
As far as Luke's "escape" is concerned, compare it to the words of Paul:
I Thessalonians chapter 5
[1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
[6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
Those who "shall not escape" (vs. 3) are those who will not be ready when the Lord "comes as a thief in the night" (vs. 2).
Conversely, those who shall escape are those who will be ready when the Lord "comes as a thief in the night".
So, when is Jesus "coming as a thief"?
No need to guess because he flat out told us:
Revelation chapter 16
[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
[17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Again, between the pouring out of the sixth and seventh vials of the wrath of God, Jesus has NOT yet "come as a thief". For this reason, he is heard admonishing his disciples to "watch and keep their garments".
This is reality...unlike the pre-tribulation rapture farce.
P.S.
I cannot help but notice that you said nothing about why we need glorified bodies to begin with.
Take a break have a laugh lol
This horse dead yet?
Revelation 8:7
New International Version
7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
Everything is fine, God loves me.
This horse dead yet?
Revelation 8:7
New International Version
7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
Everything is fine, God loves me.
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L
Did you even read my post before responding to it?
Again, we need glorified bodies to enter into the kingdom of God.
Paul said that, right?
Yes, he did.
Well, Paul is already in heaven, right?
Yes, he is.
If "the kingdom of God" is in heaven, then how in the world did Paul and others get there without glorified bodies?
Start with that, and then you'll understand what the whole being "changed" thing is all about.
We need incorruptible bodies to enter into the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of God is coming to this earth when Jesus Christ returns as "King of kings, and Lord of lords".
Again, we need glorified bodies to enter into the kingdom of God.
Paul said that, right?
Yes, he did.
Well, Paul is already in heaven, right?
Yes, he is.
If "the kingdom of God" is in heaven, then how in the world did Paul and others get there without glorified bodies?
Start with that, and then you'll understand what the whole being "changed" thing is all about.
We need incorruptible bodies to enter into the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of God is coming to this earth when Jesus Christ returns as "King of kings, and Lord of lords".
L
lol.
Forget about Paul for a minute...and then tell you what Paul said and why?
"Change" means that you get a glorified body without which one cannot enter into the kingdom of God which is coming to this earth.
THIS is why we need glorified bodies.
Again, if "the kingdom of God" is in heaven, then nobody needs a glorified body to get there because many saints are already there.
In fact, Jesus is bringing them with him from the third heaven when he COMES and DESCENDS.
As I've asked others here before, where is the imaginary U-turn back to heaven as Jesus COMES and DESCENDS and the saints who are yet alive are caught up or raptured to meet him/them in the clouds (part of our earth's atmosphere or the first heaven) and/or the air (our earth's atmosphere or the first heaven)?
HINT:
It's nowhere to be found in scripture because it's NEVER happening.
Anyhow, I've got to leave for work soon, so if I don't respond again until tomorrow, then that is why.
Forget about Paul for a minute...and then tell you what Paul said and why?
"Change" means that you get a glorified body without which one cannot enter into the kingdom of God which is coming to this earth.
THIS is why we need glorified bodies.
Again, if "the kingdom of God" is in heaven, then nobody needs a glorified body to get there because many saints are already there.
In fact, Jesus is bringing them with him from the third heaven when he COMES and DESCENDS.
As I've asked others here before, where is the imaginary U-turn back to heaven as Jesus COMES and DESCENDS and the saints who are yet alive are caught up or raptured to meet him/them in the clouds (part of our earth's atmosphere or the first heaven) and/or the air (our earth's atmosphere or the first heaven)?
HINT:
It's nowhere to be found in scripture because it's NEVER happening.
Anyhow, I've got to leave for work soon, so if I don't respond again until tomorrow, then that is why.