Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[kaylagrl]

God's promise to the nation of Israel was conditional upon their fulfilling of the stipulations of the promise.
They failed. Because of that, all that remains (ed) of the promise is the fulfillment of the warnings God gave
to them to their evil and not to their good.

Maybe we need to start back here...

Unconditional - not limited by conditions; absolute,not subject to any special terms or conditions

(no stipulations)

There is no they!! You are utterly ignoring Scripture. There is no they! God made an unconditional, irrevocable, promise/covenant with Himself to keep the covenant He made. A blood covenant, not with Christ. Read the verses for yourself!! smh God walked between the halved animals, that means he is the only "they" in the covenant. Abraham was asleep. God was saying He would keep the unconditional covenant. It cannot be broken, fail or be taken back. It was/is a forever covenant!!! Why can't people understand the simplest of verses? You utterly ignore chapters of the Word right in front of you, and then we wonder why people are so far from the truth. Clearly you haven't read the passage! Please sit down and read the passage. It says nothing about the covenant being conditional, it isn't spiritual. It's a literal place. You deny that then rip that part of Scripture right out of the Bible and throw it in the garbage because you are denying it because it doesn't fit your agenda. So toss it out, you only believe parts of the Word.

 

[rogerg]

Unconditional - not limited by conditions; absolute,not subject to any special terms or conditions

Okay, so that we are both discussing the same thing, please provide the verses you see to the nation of Israel as the basis for that statement -- even just the primary ones

 

[rogerg]

The covenant with Abraham is NOT synonymous to a covenant with the nation of Israel

 

[rogerg]

The blood covenant was made as an everlasting and unconditional promise to Abraham. God told him to look at the land, he told him he would possess the land, he told him the borders of the land he sealed his UNCONDITIONAL promise with the blood covenant. An actual place, with actual land. smh

Forgot to use the reply correctly - my prior reply, plus a little added to it below

The covenant with Abraham is NOT synonymous to a covenant with the nation of Israel. Our disagreement is
on God's covenant with the nation of Israel.

 

[Runningman]

Not to take away from the lively discord.
God' view is not human view, we as believers should take that in to account, is that correct?
God can see the past, present, and future all at the same time. God is there in the past, is now , and is future all at same time. There for, God can elect , save, and judge at same time. Because it is happing all at same time from His prospective.
For example, God see a person in hell (meaning it is over for that person) already knowing this, God can elect for for this, while also giving that person free will to chose to be saved( which in this case the person chose wrong). This thread is talking like God is human, and with a human view point. Which is wrong. Please think of God's view and lean not on human understanding.

God in His infinite wisdom also has a human point of view, otherwise we'd have no idea what He is talking about. I don't think we were meant to understand the Bible from a perspective of omniscience, but that would probably help a lot.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

God in His infinite wisdom also has a human point of view, otherwise we'd have no idea what He is talking about. I don't think we were meant to understand the Bible from a perspective of omniscience, but that would probably help a lot.

amen God already knows what he speaks , he’s given it to man because we don’t know until we hear and believe what he’s said

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Maybe we need to start back here...

Unconditional - not limited by conditions; absolute,not subject to any special terms or conditions

(no stipulations)

There is no they!! You are utterly ignoring Scripture. There is no they! God made an unconditional, irrevocable, promise/covenant with Himself to keep the covenant He made. A blood covenant, not with Christ. Read the verses for yourself!! smh God walked between the halved animals, that means he is the only "they" in the covenant. Abraham was asleep. God was saying He would keep the unconditional covenant. It cannot be broken, fail or be taken back. It was/is a forever covenant!!! Why can't people understand the simplest of verses? You utterly ignore chapters of the Word right in front of you, and then we wonder why people are so far from the truth. Clearly you haven't read the passage! Please sit down and read the passage. It says nothing about the covenant being conditional, it isn't spiritual. It's a literal place. You deny that then rip that part of Scripture right out of the Bible and throw it in the garbage because you are denying it because it doesn't fit your agenda. So toss it out, you only believe parts of the Word.

why they fail to understand is

1. The gift is unconditional. The land and the peace that God promised, and God making them a special nation is unconditional

2. Them being able to enjoy what is rightly theirs, that is conditional.

As lev 26 says, If you disobey me I will punish you (7 times)

But the land is still there's.. even thought Gentiles live in it (part of the punishment)

That was NEVER given to the church. period

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The covenant with Abraham is NOT synonymous to a covenant with the nation of Israel

yes it was. You have been shown this multiple times

But here we go again.

Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation; (this is one Nation. This is what would come to be known as Israel. )
I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing .3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Gen 15:
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
7 Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”
8 And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”
9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.

17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”


2 times in this conversation. God told Abraham he would be given land. The second time, We see the unconditional covenant. God said I GIVE YOU. He did not say, IF YOU DO THIS, I WILL GIVE YOU

Gen 17:
17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of [e]many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”


Here the 3rd chapter. and the 3rd time, Again, God said I make a covenant wiht you. part of that covenant is the land as one nation. and we are told how long that covenant will be valid (everlasting, eternal, forever)

 

[FreeGrace2]

kaylagrl said:
Well, I believe the Word over Calvin.

Some people say that, but in reality they dont believe the word of God, and try to excuse it as not believing calvin.

Her point is that the Word of God does NOT say what Calvin said.

Exampes:

1. Can you find a verse that says that God chooses who will believe?
2. Can you find a verse that says that Christ died ONLY for the elect?
3. Can you find a verse that says that election is to salvation?
4. Can you find a verse that says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

The answer is NO to all these questions, yet these are solid Calvinist teachings.

 

[kaylagrl]

why they fail to understand is

1. The gift is unconditional. The land and the peace that God promised, and God making them a special nation is unconditional

2. Them being able to enjoy what is rightly theirs, that is conditional.

As lev 26 says, If you disobey me I will punish you (7 times)

But the land is still there's.. even thought Gentiles live in it (part of the punishment)

That was NEVER given to the church. period

Exactly! That's Replacement Theology and it's false doctrine. Israel was the nation born in a day. I don't know why people miss it. It was clear the land was given Abraham and his descendants. Unbreakable, unconditional promise. They lost the use of the land for a time, but they never lost the deed.

 

[brightfame52]

You just attacked people by calling them decieved. Look in the mirror dude,

And yes people are decieved. And anyone is foolish to think they may not be part of those decieved.

We ALL must be open.

again, Let’s stick to the word and stop with all the nonsense.

Saying that some people are deceived isnt an attack, its the truth. Scripture says it 2 Tim 3:13

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

However I never called anyone deceived personally, but you did.

 

[brightfame52]

See there you go again, No facts, Just opinion.

Look in the mirror my friend.

Its the truth, many people call scripture truth calvinism.

 

[brightfame52]

Yeah, and some people follow Calvin and don't know the Word. If you knew the Word you wouldn't believe what you do.

Some people are following the word, and people say they are following calvinism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Its the truth, many people call scripture truth calvinism.

Doesn't matter how many do. The Bible does not teach Calvinism.

1. Can you find a verse that says that God chooses who will believe?
2. Can you find a verse that says that Christ died ONLY for the elect?
3. Can you find a verse that says that election is to salvation?
4. Can you find a verse that says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

The answer is NO to all these questions, yet these are solid Calvinist teachings.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Saying that some people are deceived isnt an attack, its the truth. Scripture says it 2 Tim 3:13

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

However I never called anyone deceived personally, but you did.

yawn

Its not the truth.

Thats the problem.

hence it is an attack

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Gotta love it when someone (@rogerg) puts a red X on a post which proves him to be in error. (He stated that no part of the abrahamic covenant had prety much anything to do with a nation or land) oh, and I am not just saying it, I have proof.'

The covenant with Abraham is NOT synonymous to a covenant with the nation of Israel

Then does not have the common courtesy to say why it is wrong.. Especially after that person called the someone arrogant in another post.

It just proves who is the true person who has an arrogance issue.

 

[rogerg]

But here we go again.

Read the following S-L-O-W-L-Y and absorb it, let it sink in, and if you do, let me know, and I will post more.
You make assumptions and associations in your post the Bible doesn't, and can't, support.
Just because you say something is so, doesn't make it so. You' make giant leaps of logic that are wrong and unsupportable.
I really don't have any hope you will be able to understand this all, and even if you do, you won't admit to it, nevertheless, here it is.

Here is the covenant God made with the nation of Israel.
[Jos 24:19 KJV]
19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

[1Ki 9:6-7 KJV]
6 [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

[Jer 3:6-9 KJV]
6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7 And I said after she had done all these [things], Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw [it].
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. 9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

[Jdg 2:12 KJV]
12 And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that [were] round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[Deu 24:4 KJV] 4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

[Jos 24:14-16 KJV]
14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

[Jos 24:19 KJV] 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

[Jos 24:20-22 KJV]
20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.
22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye [are] witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, [We are] witnesses.

[Jos 24:24-25 KJV]
24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

[1Ki 9:4-9 KJV]
4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, [and] wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

6 [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

8 And at this house, [which] is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house? 9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

 

[kaylagrl]

Read the following S-L-O-W-L-Y and absorb it, let it sink in, and if you do, let me know, and I will post more.
You make assumptions and associations in your post the Bible doesn't, and can't, support.
Just because you say something is so, doesn't make it so. You' make giant leaps of logic that are wrong and unsupportable.
I really don't have any hope you will be able to understand this all, and even if you do, you won't admit to it, nevertheless, here it is.

Here is the covenant God made with the nation of Israel.

Taking 30 verses out of context doesn't make you right. The Covenant with Abraham came before that. It was a promise of land, it was unconditional it was everlasting. Anything you try to poke in after that is nonsensical. You cannot undo an unconditional covenant. The land was given to Abraham. The promise continued. It cannot be broken. There's no need for slllloww reading or posting more Scripture that has nothing to do with the subject. It looks like people here don't know their covenants, or what a covenant means or how they are made. Wow!! It's time to go back to Sunday School. smh

 

[rogerg]

But here we go again.

As you can see by my prior post, God's covenant with the nation of Israel was
conditionally based. It contained both promises to their good and promises to their hurt depending upon their actions.
As they did NOT meet those requirements due to their own actions, therefore, the nation of Israel lost its special
standing with God: God invoked the stipulations that divorced Israel from God, and with it, lost forever its blessings as a nation.
However, the eternal, spiritual, Israel, the new Israel, with its holy city, the new Jerusalem
can never lose it because it was not achieved by the actions of its inhabitants but solely by/through Christ and His achievement and therefore, remains with God for ever.

[Rev 21:1-2 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[rogerg]

Taking 30 verses out of context doesn't make you right. The Covenant with Abraham came before that. It was a promise of land, it was unconditional it was everlasting. Anything you try to poke in after that is nonsensical. You cannot undo an unconditional covenant. The land was given to Abraham. The promise continued. It cannot be broken. There's no need for slllloww reading or posting more Scripture that has nothing to do with the subject. It looks like people here don't know their covenants, or what a covenant means or how they are made. Wow!! It's time to go back to Sunday School. smh

I didn't take anything out of context. Your statement is what everyone who can't answer the points
falls back upon. The everlasting covenant/blessings to Abraham were for spiritual Israel, not to national Israel. It is impossible that a contradiction can exist within the Bible so the Israel of the blessings could not be national Israel which was evidenced by God's
divorcing of it. The covenant WAS NOT broken - it was for spiritual Israel - those who would become Christians throughout time.
You do see that God divorced national Israel, don't you and can't remarry her?