Should I Give Up?

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Lori

Lori

Member
#1
Mar 25, 2022
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#1
Have you ever known someone who was not saved, but when they finally accept Jesus as Lord, the Holy Spirit makes changes in them that you can see? Sometimes it’s a huge, obvious change, like a debilitating addiction is overcome overnight, or suddenly they can’t get enough of the Bible and desperately begin seeking Bible study’s and sermons and classes. Often the transition begins imperceptibly like a subtle change to their vocabulary, or just a slight change in body language that only another believer can detect.

My friend Johnathan often talks about wanting to be a follower of Christ, largely because he has seen the changes it’s made in my husband and myself over the 20 years that he’s known us. He has been guided through the sinners prayer at least 5 times as though it were a booster shot. My husband and I have encouraged him to find an expository teaching church, to read his Bible, to join a Bible study, to stop dating unbelieving, immoral women. We have explained the amazing power of prayer and obedience to His Word. We’ve desperately tried to get him out of the habit of using Jesus’ name as a vile curse word. And in all these years there has been absolutely no detectable sign of transformation.

None.

It’s been like pulling the recoil starter cord on a lawnmower that just won’t start.

Lately I’ve been reading about the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election. I never really payed attention to it before until my husband suggested that maybe Johnathan never received the Holy Spirit because he simply is not one of the elect. Is it possible that God simply doesn’t want him? That thought saddens me.

So here’s my question. What is my responsibility here? Do I keep encouraging a man to reach for the Lord regardless of whether or not the Lord reaches back? Am I wasting prayer time on him? Does the lord want me to kick the dust off my feet and move on?
 
A-Sword-Cometh

A-Sword-Cometh

Banned
#2
Jan 12, 2022
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#2
Ask your husband instead. Whatever your husband says is correct to do with this situation, do that.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#3
Feb 20, 2021
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#3
Welcome, Lori.

Much, oh so much could be written about all that you've offered to us, and much will be given by those after me. Here are my basic and simple thoughts:

God has "timing." This timing is written based upon the Eternal Plan that Paul wrote about. Eternal Plans must be implemented, which means that God is ultimately in control. In contrast, we are not in control. This is why we plant seeds, but it is the Spirit who makes a seedling grow. You and I are not the soil, nor are we the nutrients, nor are we the water. We are merely sowers of seed . . . nothing more; nothing less.

Therefore, keep sowing! But, if you find that someone is being an incredibly bad influence upon yourself, your husband, or others that you know, I would advise a separation. We should not place ourselves in a position that leads to personal sin. For example, I had to separate myself from one of my former very best of friends, as he had actually taught me how to fornicate with multiple people within the same time period. He was "proud" of my conquests, all the while claiming to be a "believer" in God.

You've heard the stories of people, who while on their deathbed, look up as if into the ceiling, holding up their weak arms, develop a look of awe upon their faces, and gasp for breath as if to experience the most incredible sense of Peace, Love, and wonder . . . it is my contention that they are receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Circumcision of Christ. If this is True, then it would mean that the Lord allowed a person to suffer under the influence of the Mind of Satan throughout their entire lives, only to be saved just prior to death. And why not?

Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

There is no time frame that we all received the Circumcision of Christ, the ability to Repent, the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps a person is born without the Curse of the Sinful Nature, or, as said, perhaps a person will not receive Spiritual Circumcision until their near death. And, who is to say that someone might not be lifted of this unholy Curse after they have died and Spiritually stand before the Lord? Some may be saved at age 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, etc.

So again, you are the sower. Therefore, do not worry, but do your part. And most importantly, continue to be a living example to all around you. Be a light unto the world. Talk about your Roman's 12:2 Transformation, and continue to spread the importance that we undergo such a Transformation, from that of a worm to that of a beautiful butterfly. We must change! If we go through a Holy Transformation, we can look at Scripture and KNOW that we have been chosen by our Powerful, Almighty God!

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
 
Artios1

Artios1

Born again to serve
#4
Dec 11, 2020
678
420
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#4
I can't tell you what to do ...As far as I am aware (which isn't much) we sow the seed. ....I mean.... if I were God I would possess everyone and make them believe.... it's a good thing I'm not......I kind of like that freedom of will thing.
The thing about planting seed is ....you never know. I have seen immediate results and I have seen 10 + years results....we just don't know, but the seed is there. You don't need to shake the dust off unless he is dragging you down. Just be there when it starts to germinate.

One thing I never do is try to second guess some ones salvation ....he may be born again and just not living it....We don't know if at any point in his life that he made that connection (Rom 10:9) even for a moment.....
 
Lori

Lori

Member
#5
Mar 25, 2022
32
16
8
#5
Thank you. I appreciate the reminder that I'm just the sower, and I'm not ultimately responsible for someone else's salvation. I also hadn't thought about the fact that many people come to faith in the last seconds of their life.

I guess I'm in for the long haul.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#6
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
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#6
Lori said:
Thank you. I appreciate the reminder that I'm just the sower, and I'm not ultimately responsible for someone else's salvation. I also hadn't thought about the fact that many people come to faith in the last seconds of their life.

I guess I'm in for the long haul.
Click to expand...
Good for you! Think of an abandoned child: What good does an adoptive "parent" do for that child if they give up on them? We cannot give up unless it is for the sake of the whole, but when we DO give up on a person, we only create a deeper rooted and seated problem for them. I can testify how destructive it is to have people walk away from you, for they send the horrific message that you are "no good," or, "you're not good enough for me."

If we have the mindset of giving up on people, and without good reason, we are only causing deeper harm. And in this case, when a True Christian gives up on a person, we send the same, clear message that they are no good, and they may lean even further still to the ways of the Devil . . . and we all know that the ways of the Devil translate to worldly pleasures. What are those worldly pleasures? Alcoholism and other various drug addictions; pornography and the actual experience of rampant sexual encounters. All of these things are amazing in themselves, but combined, they are so extremely difficult to walk away from (for the pleasure is incredibly great!) So again, when we give up on a person, we may very well be directly pushing them into a deeper life of sex, drugs, and alcoholism . . . which is probably the single most prolific and common combination of addictions there could possibly be. When we give up on a person, we are literally playing a deadly game with their very lives.

1 Corinthians 9:21-23 NLT - "When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ. 22 When I am with those who are weak, I share their weakness, for I want to bring the weak to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone, doing everything I can to save some. 23 I do everything to spread the Good News and share in its blessings."

And to avoid being called a hypocrite, I can attest that this is a good reminder to myself. I have failed in these areas . . . even recently.
 
T

TheLearner

Well-known member
#7
Jan 14, 2019
8,223
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Brighton, MI
#7
Lori said:
Have you ever known someone who was not saved, but when they finally accept Jesus as Lord, the Holy Spirit makes changes in them that you can see? Sometimes it’s a huge, obvious change, like a debilitating addiction is overcome overnight, or suddenly they can’t get enough of the Bible and desperately begin seeking Bible study’s and sermons and classes. Often the transition begins imperceptibly like a subtle change to their vocabulary, or just a slight change in body language that only another believer can detect.

My friend Johnathan often talks about wanting to be a follower of Christ, largely because he has seen the changes it’s made in my husband and myself over the 20 years that he’s known us. He has been guided through the sinners prayer at least 5 times as though it were a booster shot. My husband and I have encouraged him to find an expository teaching church, to read his Bible, to join a Bible study, to stop dating unbelieving, immoral women. We have explained the amazing power of prayer and obedience to His Word. We’ve desperately tried to get him out of the habit of using Jesus’ name as a vile curse word. And in all these years there has been absolutely no detectable sign of transformation.

None.

It’s been like pulling the recoil starter cord on a lawnmower that just won’t start.

Lately I’ve been reading about the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election. I never really payed attention to it before until my husband suggested that maybe Johnathan never received the Holy Spirit because he simply is not one of the elect. Is it possible that God simply doesn’t want him? That thought saddens me.

So here’s my question. What is my responsibility here? Do I keep encouraging a man to reach for the Lord regardless of whether or not the Lord reaches back? Am I wasting prayer time on him? Does the lord want me to kick the dust off my feet and move on?
Click to expand...
Before I was saved, I liked beating up people. Now, I love them.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#8
Jul 3, 2015
61,166
30,313
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#8
My best friend from high school had a Christian mom who prayed for my salvation for over thirty years.

Another good friend gave me a study Bible seven years before I was saved.

She told them to hold me down extra long when I was baptized :giggle:

1 Tomothy 2:1-4 ~
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving
be made for all people—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live
peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases
God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge
of the truth.
 
S

Shakey

Member
#9
Mar 16, 2022
61
19
8
#9
Good morning,
I agree will all the sowing and the seed comments above, however, I would be careful on the Calvinist teachings.

In Calvinist theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition.

Why would a loving and merciful God create us and then say only you and you get to spend glorified eternity with me in heaven, and you and you, well even though I created you I don't love you enough to take you to heaven.
I look at it this way, we are all predestined to go to be with our creator in heaven, He also gave us a free will, so where do we choose to spend eternity. If we continue in our sinful ways then we are turned over to our reprobate ways (Romans 1:21-32).

John 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the away, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (not an elected few, it is "WHOEVER" believes).

Abba, Father, I humbly come to you for your strength, guidance and understanding of Your words given to all of us in 66 books. I pray that you would open our eyes and hearts to your truth, we know the enemy want to kill us, you want to save us! Abba, you gave us a free will, let us ALL choose the straight and narrow path, and I pray that we would bring along ALL those who will listen and accept you as their personal savior. In you Holy Precious name I pray, amen.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#10
Jul 3, 2015
61,166
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#10
Shakey said:
Abba, Father, I humbly come to you for your strength, guidance and understanding of Your words given to all of us in 66 books. I pray that you would open our eyes and hearts to your truth, we know the enemy want to kill us, you want to save us! Abba, you gave us a free will, let us ALL choose the straight and narrow path, and I pray that we would bring along ALL those who will listen and accept you as their personal savior. In you Holy Precious name I pray, amen.
Click to expand...

Amen!:)
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#11
Feb 20, 2021
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#11
Freewill . . . ok.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Taking people out of this "deep sleep" is the Purpose of Christ, it is the reason for His Work, and because of this Holy Work, there is an Effect, whether a person be Jew or Gentile. The entire Bible revolves around being freed from the CONTROL of the Devil.

I'd be very careful about the teachings of those who teach anything other than the Bible.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#12
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
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#12
No
its just not his time yet or there is still work to be done. Nothing wrong with the seed, sometimes the soil actually needs work for it to germinate. This is where love comes in so that someone can be open to receive.

calvinism is more of a crank job to provide those with answers so they can feel smug about being saved. oh God just chose me, I was just born in the right place at the right time. Calvinists want to take what was the preserve of the chosen people (the israelites) and make it about themselves.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#13
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
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#13
I believe in the Power of God, after all, does he have the "Whole world in His Hands"? I believe in Election because the Bible makes it clear that, at the very least, it is a possibility, as opposed to the understandable teaching of free will.

And just because I believe in the doctrine of Election, I would hate that anyone would think that my belief is "all about me." Instead, it really has nothing to do with "me," but it has to do with God and whom He chooses to give His Grace and Mercy.

It saddens me to see such blanket statements about an entire group of people who happen to believe in the understandable doctrine of Election. While I believe in such a doctrine, I don't feel that there is anything "special" about me in the least. In fact, when I was Powerfully Indwelt by the Spirit of God, and Circumcised in the Heart, the one concept that the Lord clearly placed into my mind was the following:

"I do not require you."

How humbling such a message is. I am thankful beyond words that the Lord would grant me His Grace and Mercy . . . the Grace and Mercy of lifting the Curse that causes Spiritual Blindness.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#14
Jul 3, 2015
61,166
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#14
2ndTimothyGroup said:
I believe in the Power of God, after all, does he have the "Whole world in His Hands"? I believe in Election because the Bible makes it clear that, at the very least, it is a possibility, as opposed to the understandable teaching of free will.

And just because I believe in the doctrine of Election, I would hate that anyone would think that my belief is "all about me." Instead, it really has nothing to do with "me," but it has to do with God and whom He chooses to give His Grace and Mercy.

It saddens me to see such blanket statements about an entire group of people who happen to believe in the understandable doctrine of Election. While I believe in such a doctrine, I don't feel that there is anything "special" about me in the least. In fact, when I was Powerfully Indwelt by the Spirit of God, and Circumcised in the Heart, the one concept that the Lord clearly placed into my mind was the following:

"I do not require you."

How humbling such a message is. I am thankful beyond words that the Lord would grant me His Grace and Mercy . . . the Grace and Mercy of lifting the Curse that causes Spiritual Blindness.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."
Click to expand...

Ezekiel 36:25-26
:)

 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#16
Jul 3, 2015
61,166
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#16
2ndTimothyGroup said:
Awww . . . these are beautiful. Can you make one that includes verse 27? That verse is
critical because it talks about how the Lord CAUSES His Elect to obey. So important . . .
Click to expand...

Ezekielv36:25-27
I just added verse 27 for you :)
 
Lori

Lori

Member
#18
Mar 25, 2022
32
16
8
#18
2ndTimothyGroup said:
I believe in the Power of God, after all, does he have the "Whole world in His Hands"? I believe in Election because the Bible makes it clear that, at the very least, it is a possibility, as opposed to the understandable teaching of free will.

And just because I believe in the doctrine of Election, I would hate that anyone would think that my belief is "all about me." Instead, it really has nothing to do with "me," but it has to do with God and whom He chooses to give His Grace and Mercy.

It saddens me to see such blanket statements about an entire group of people who happen to believe in the understandable doctrine of Election. While I believe in such a doctrine, I don't feel that there is anything "special" about me in the least. In fact, when I was Powerfully Indwelt by the Spirit of God, and Circumcised in the Heart, the one concept that the Lord clearly placed into my mind was the following:

"I do not require you."

How humbling such a message is. I am thankful beyond words that the Lord would grant me His Grace and Mercy . . . the Grace and Mercy of lifting the Curse that causes Spiritual Blindness.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."
Click to expand...
I never really noticed Ezekiel 36 before. Thank you. The more I think about unconditional election, the more nervous I am that my salvation has been taken out of my control… and the more grateful that my salvation has been taken out of my control.
 
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