An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[ewq1938]

before

The last day before the Millennium is when the rapture happens.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Oh, well then we agree on that! That wouldn't have been the case had the nation not rejected Jesus. As the Scriptures say "To the Jew first" and "He went to his own and his own received him not".

But eventually his own will receive Him. The Jesus movement in the 60s was kind of a kick start.

Remember, they were BOTH virgins, they both had oil (holy spirit) except they let it run out. They didn't keep alert and let that light shine, and so it went out, and as a result they missed out on what they had initially been waiting for, the Bridegroom.

Remember, the wheat and tares were BOTH in the field and looking like wheats when they sprout, but in the end, wheat are gathered into the barn, tares are thrown into the fire. The gist of the ten virgin parable is the same.

Putting all this together, we have a picture of the early Christian church clothed with the gospel of Jesus, supported additionally by the lessons of the Old Testament, and crowned with the teachings of the twelve apostles.

All of these are made up to justify a false Catholic doctrine. The identical imagery of Woman's appearance was mentioned in Joseph's dream in Gen. 37:9-10, and the Woman was identified as Israel by Jacob/Israel's own words: "Shall I (Jacob) and your mother (Rachel) and your brothers (other 11 tribes) indeed come to bown down to the earth before you?”

 

[Diakonos]

None of those relates to rapture.

Ok?

 

[Nehemiah6]

The last day before the Millennium is when the rapture happens.

That would be several years too late. How you arrived at this bizarre conclusion is baffling.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That would be several years too late. How you arrived at this bizarre conclusion is baffling.

"The dead in Christ will rise FIRST," 1 Thess. 4:16. No resurrection, no "rapture".

 

[godlovejoy]

The last day before the Millennium is when the rapture happens.

The last day before the Millennium is when the rapture happens.

Yes this is where the time is up:
REVELATION 10
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Post #353
Okay, bare with me. Lets compare the 144,000 and the Great Multitude with the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25. There are two groups shown in Matthew chapter 25:1-13, similar to the two groups of Christians depicted in Revelation chapter 7.

There are some very familiar symbols in the Matthew description, which makes it easier to interpret who is being described and provide a good starting place to consider these two groups of Christians. First we have ten virgins with lamps in Matthew. The use of virgins as a symbol (2 Cor. 11:2) corresponds to those who’ve dedicated their life to Jesus the bridegroom (Revelation 19:7), and the number ten signifies that these virgins represent the sum total of all of the virgins. However, the virgins are divided into two groups – wise virgins and foolish virgins.

All the virgins have lamps representing the word of God (Psalm 119:105, 2 Peter 1:19) and all of them are awakened by the announcement of the bridegroom’s presence outside the door (cf. Revelation 3:20). However, the foolish virgins have brought insufficient oil with them for their lamps. The oil is the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 6:1-3, 2 Cor. 1:21-22) and evidently the foolish virgins lack the same spirit of commitment as the wise virgins.

Matthew places this parable in the same context with signs (Matthew chapter 24) and with other parables (Matthew chapter 25) of Christ’s return. That is the sense of this parable, also, for all of the virgins are waiting for the bridegroom to return.

The foolish virgins experience difficulties when the bridegroom arrives at the house at the stroke of midnight (cf. Song of Solomon 5:2-7). Their lamps are sputtering from a lack of oil, which suggests they are having difficulty understanding everything happening at the time. They go to get more oil in the marketplace (the parallel in Revelation seven would be the great multitude going out into the great tribulation). While they are gone the bridegroom takes the wise virgins to the wedding feast and the door is closed to the foolish virgins.

Note that throughout the parable they never cease to be virgins. They are genuinely loyal to Christ, but seem to lack the same degree or spirit (oil) of zeal and commitment that the wise virgins manifest, and they are shut out from going in to the wedding. So this parable suggests something different from the traditional view of the church… the understanding that all Christians are members of the bride of Christ. In the case of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, there are two “classes” of Christians… and not all of them are part of the bride and the wedding.

So how do we account for these foolish virgins? Is the entire explanation for the existence of this group based solely on this parable? Consider some other examples from the scriptures –

• In Psalm 45 we have also a description of a wedding feast for the king’s daughter. In verse 14 we read “she will be led to the king in embroidered work; the virgins her companions who follow her shall be brought to you.” The Psalm is rich with metaphor, and if the bride is the wise virgins of the parable in Matthew, then who do the “virgins her companions who follow her” represent if not the foolish virgins?
• In 1 Corinthians 3:14 and 15 we have an example of two individuals that build on the foundation of Jesus Christ (verse 11). One of these individuals builds with quality materials and the other builds with inferior materials. The one who builds with quality materials receives a reward. The one who builds with inferior materials has their work destroyed, but they are still saved… although through the fire of trials (1 Peter 4:12).

These passages bear a striking similarity to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew chapter 25 and the great multitude in Revelation chapter seven – in Psalm 45 we have the bride and then her virgin companions who are not the bride. In 1 Corinthians chapter 3 we have those who are rewarded as opposed to those who seem to be barely saved from destruction (1 Cor. 3:17).

Let’s compare what we’ve just considered with Revelation chapter seven and see if we can draw similar conclusions on this subject. In Revelation chapter 7, the 144,000 are described as selected from the twelve tribes of Israel. Throughout the book of Revelation, the Israel described within its pages does not seem to represent the literal nation of Israel, but rather spiritual Israel or the church (cf. Romans 2:28-29, 9:6-8, Galatians 6:16, Philippians 3:3, 135 Colossians 2:11, Revelation 2:9). As in other places throughout Revelation, it makes much more sense to interpret the tribes in chapter seven as spiritual Israel.

As in Matthew chapter 25, there are two groups of people described in the chapter. In Revelation chapter seven they are described as the 144,000 (7:1-8) and the great multitude (7:9-17), and these two groups are readily distinguished from each other. In one instance the group has a specific number (the 144,000), and this is contrasted with the great multitude that is a group “which no man could number.” The first group is sealed before the winds of trouble are loosed (verses 1-3) and the other group experiences “great tribulation” (verse 14).

In addition we have descriptions of the bride of Christ from elsewhere that differ significantly from the description of the great multitude in chapter seven. For example the bride of Christ is everywhere described as seated on thrones and reigning (Revelation 3:21, 20:4), while in this chapter the great multitude are described as ”before the throne” yet worshipping in God’s temple (verse 15). The bride of Christ is described as those “who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy” (Revelation 3:4). In contrast the great multitude is described as those whose robes were soiled and they “have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

The book of Revelation is not the only place where we have an example of those who need to have their robes washed. In the book of Jude we have a description of those who have not been completely faithful and who needed special repentance and cleansing. The book of Jude (verses 22-23) speaks of various examples of those who are straying in some way from the love of God (verse 21). It specifically makes mention of having mercy on those whose “garment [is] polluted [or “spotted”] by the flesh.”

This idea of cleansing from the actions of the flesh is elsewhere depicted in 1 Corinthians 5:5. Here we have the description of the unrepentant man whom the church had not confronted. Paul speaks of “the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Paul is dealing with a specific individual rather than discussing a representative group in this instance, and he does not judge this man’s ultimate destiny. However, the verse does convey the idea of repentance and forgiveness and cleansing from the flesh as the outcome of suffering (tribulation).

Of course, our description of the great multitude could be criticized in our so[1]called enlightened age for not being properly egalitarian. Yet the scriptures do not shy away from the concept of reward (2 John 1:8) or even differing rewards. For an example, take some to read and ponder the parable of the pounds in Luke 19:11-27.

I think you are speaking to the wrong man. I am not listening. The man you instructed in so sweet a manner is the man you ought to be speaking to. Not me. Do hope that helps you - but if not lets go to the ravine together where silence is just a prelude to the storm that makes ruin the walk.

 

[FreeGrace2]

“I don’t know you,” (Matt. 25:13), essentially the same conclusion for “those who practice lawlessness” (Matt. 7:23).

And, both clearly indicate that those people never believed in Christ for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yeah, only one mass physical resurrection at the end of the Tribulation when He returns. There was one similar event before that though, which took place right after the resurrection at Jerusalem - many saints rose from the grave.

Keep in mind that there is NO mention or even indication that any of those who "rose from the grave" received glorified bodies, OR that they then were raptured up to heaven. If they were, then they would have to be left out of the "mass physical resurrection at the Second Advent. And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't allow for such an idea. ALL believers will be resurrected/glorified "when He comes" back.

That was a microcosm of the final bodily resurrection. What is debatable, though, is UNTIL THE DAY OF THE LORD, whether our souls will be transported to Hades by Charon the ferryman, or immediately ascended to heaven with the Lord.

Why would that be "debatable"? Paul was clear that being absent from the body means being at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6,8

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not according to Scripture. The Resurrection/Rapture occurs long before the resurrection of the Tribulation saints.

Not possible. The Bible very clearly SAYS there is one resurrection of the saints. Only one. Every reference to the believers' resurrection is in the singular. There are no stages, etc. Pretribbers are forced to make up a number of resurrections to make their theology work.

And the Bible also clearly SAYS the resurrection of trib martyrs is "the first resurrection". You just can't get around these facts.

Stay with what the Bible says and you can't go wrong.

You say "not according to Scripture". Can you provide any verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? No. Not even debatable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Church (which is you and I) is the Bride of Christ Jesus. All those who are taken up in the Rapture.

By the time Jesus comes back, the VAST majority of the Church will already be in heaven, awaiting their glorified bodies. And they will accompany Him to the clouds in the air and meet up with those who are alive and remain. The dead will get their glorified bodies first, followed by the living believers.

The believers living "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) will be just a very small fraction of what we call the Church.

And 1 Cor 15:23 says the single resurrection is for "those who belong to Him". So, just who belongs to Jesus? EVERY one who has believed in Him for salvation. From Adam on.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The resistance to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture stems from the fact that most people do not even understand the reason for the Resurrection/Rapture.

No, the resistance is solely based on what Scripture says and DOESN'T say. The Bible says NOTHING about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

The Bible is very clear about the fact the resurrection of the saved is singular. There is just one. It must be placed correctly on the timeline of history. And 1 Cor 15:23 tells us precisely WHEN that resurrection will be: "when He comes".

And we KNOW what Paul was referring to because John called the resurrection of trib martyrs "the first resurrecton".

There is NO getting around this fact.

There will be NO trip to heaven after getting a glorified body. Believers are already in heaven without a glorified body. The glorified body will be NECESSARY to serve and reign with Christ during the Millennial reign, which will occur immediately after the Tribulation.

So, those who will be "caught up to the clouds" for their glorified bodies will NEVER ENTER HEAVEN (3rd heaven). Ever. Think about it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is the same event: The Rapture.
The Rapture happens seven years before the Second Coming.

Please prove this statement from Scripture.

Pretribbers seem obsessed with "the rapture" and that trip to heaven. In reality, it is THE resurrection that we should be focused on.

Yes, those who are "alive and remain" will be "caught up" to the clouds, where they will be "changed in the twinkling of an eye" meaning they will receive glorified bodies. But then the whole crowd will descend to earth where "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) will serve/reign with Christ in His kingdom.

There will be NO trip to heaven for those "who are alive and remain".

 

[FreeGrace2]

ewq1938 said:
No, it happens at the second coming, after the Great Tribulation is over.

before

Please provide evidence from Scripture. Or quit making the claim. There's plenty of verses that prove that the single resurrection of the saved will be "when He comes", which is after the Tribulation and stated as "the first resurrection" in Rev 20:5.

 

[FreeGrace2]

ewq1938 said:
The last day before the Millennium is when the rapture happens

That would be several years too late. How you arrived at this bizarre conclusion is baffling.

Not at all baffling. Scripture is quite clear on this subject.

1. The Bible teaches that there will be just one resurrection of the saved.

• Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
• Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
• Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

These verses all describe the resurrection of the saved in the singular; that means one resurrection.

2. The Bible teaches that there will be one resurrection of the unsaved.
- Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The Bible teaches when the resurrection of the saved will be.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, this single resurrection will occur “when He comes”. The Bible clearly says when that will be.

4. The resurrection of the saved will include EVERY believer from Adam forward.

• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. It is obvious that every person who has believed in Christ do belong to Him.

5. The Bible teaches that the single resurrection of the saved will occur “when He comes” which is shown in 2 verses.

• 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, The context from ch 1 shows this “coming” is the Second Advent.
• Rev 20:4,5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

So we see in v.5 that the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is “the first resurrection”. The parentheses at the beginning of v.5 refers to all unbelievers who will be in the second resurrection, which will occur at the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ, for the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

Rev 20:5 tells us clearly that all believers, or “those who belong to Him” will be resurrected “when He comes” and Rev 20 shows that to be at the end of the Tribulation.

6. Finally, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven ever. This is the foundation for the “pretrib rapture” teaching.

If you can prove that these verses don't support or directly teach a posttrib resurrection of ALL believers, please proceed.

I do not want to be wrong any more than you do. Give me clear evidence from the Bible.

 

[DavidTree]

And, both clearly indicate that those people never believed in Christ for salvation.

I believe you said to me that you believe in mid-trib rapture - yes/no?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Keep in mind that there is NO mention or even indication that any of those who "rose from the grave" received glorified bodies, OR that they then were raptured up to heaven. If they were, then they would have to be left out of the "mass physical resurrection at the Second Advent. And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't allow for such an idea. ALL believers will be resurrected/glorified "when He comes" back.

That's a matter of opinion regarding this event recorded in Matt. 27:52-53. Whether they received glorified bodies or not, that's a preview of the "mass physical resurrection at the Second Advent", in your words.

Why would that be "debatable"? Paul was clear that being absent from the body means being at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6,8

Not quite sure about that one. In the 5th Seal they were crying out for justice and told to wait a little bit longer (Rev. 6:10-11); then again, in Rev. 13:10 they were told to have patience. Doesn't look like already at home with the Lord until 20:4-6.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe you said to me that you believe in mid-trib rapture - yes/no?

No, I didn't say that. I believe there will be a single resurrection for "those who belong to Him", per 1 Cor 15:23. And that will be "when He comes, also per 1 Cor 15:23.

And that refers to Christ's Second Advent, which will be at the end of the Tribulation.

Rev 20:5 plainly says the resurrection of the trib martyrs is "the first resurrecton". There will be one more resurrection, that one for all the unsaved. Acts 24:15 says there will be "a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved".

btw, I want to make the point that there will be no such thing as a "rapture" as pretribbers fantasize.

Jesus will NOT be taking any glorified believers to heaven, regardless of when.

I think we need to stop using that word, because of what it conjures up and stick with the biblical word "gathered", found in Matt 24 which will be after the Tribulation, and 2 Thess 2:1, which is also after the Trib.

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all living believers will be "gathered up" to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds, and everyone will receive glorified bodies.

From that point, all believers will "be with Him forever" per 1 Thess 4. So, instead of that fantasy trip to heaven, all believers will descend with Christ to earth where they will serve/reign with Him in His kingdom.

 

[godlovejoy]

"The dead in Christ will rise FIRST," 1 Thess. 4:16. No resurrection, no "rapture".

The dead and living that are “In Christ” are caught up together in the clouds. This is the First Resurrection.....Do a Study......So who are they that are “In Christ”?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Keep in mind that there is NO mention or even indication that any of those who "rose from the grave" received glorified bodies, OR that they then were raptured up to heaven. If they were, then they would have to be left out of the "mass physical resurrection at the Second Advent. And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't allow for such an idea. ALL believers will be resurrected/glorified "when He comes" back.

That's a matter of opinion regarding this event recorded in Matt. 27:52-53. Whether they received glorified bodies or not, that's a preview of the "mass physical resurrection at the Second Advent", in your words.

I stand by my view. The Bible tells us that ALL believers will receive glorified bodies (resurrection) "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23, and we know it will be ALL believers because of the phrase "those who belong to Him". It is impossible to disect out any group of believers from that statement. Obviously ALL believers belong to Him. So I don't believe that any believer will have a glorified body BEFORE that event at the Second Advent.

And Matt 27 says nothing about any of them getting a glorified body. So that would be strictly a presumption. And what about Lazarus? he was "raised from the dead". Did Jesus take him to heaven in a glorified body? The Bible doesn't say, so again, just speculation to think so.

If the Bible doesn't say something, there is no reason to believe what people claim. Unless there is very clear circumstantial evidence.

FreeGrace2 said:
Why would that be "debatable"? Paul was clear that being absent from the body means being at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6,8

Not quite sure about that one. In the 5th Seal they were crying out for justice and told to wait a little bit longer (Rev. 6:10-11); then again, in Rev. 13:10 they were told to have patience. Doesn't look like already at home with the Lord until 20:4-6.

But where did John SEE these "souls under the altar"? In heaven, where he had been transported to.

Don't you believe that when a believer dies, their soul/spirit goes to heaven? Or do you believe in "soul sleep"?