An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation
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Simple question: IS this your conclusion?
If it is, then it would have been appropriate to put it first, but clearly presented as such, like the abstract of an academic paper. You would phrase it something like this: "Having done an analysis of the relevant text, I have concluded that...." By framing it with "First thing first...", you gave the clear impression that you created your conclusion before doing any work, and that the work is just an attempt to justify the idea you already hold.
By the way, "ther're" is not an accepted contraction in English. Just type the space and the 'a'. It's not that hard.
If it is, then it would have been appropriate to put it first, but clearly presented as such, like the abstract of an academic paper. You would phrase it something like this: "Having done an analysis of the relevant text, I have concluded that...." By framing it with "First thing first...", you gave the clear impression that you created your conclusion before doing any work, and that the work is just an attempt to justify the idea you already hold.
By the way, "ther're" is not an accepted contraction in English. Just type the space and the 'a'. It's not that hard.
This is not an academic paper and I have no expectation for this thread to be an academic paper as if it’s gonna be graded by my professor or something. "Having done an analysis of the relevant text, I have concluded that...." That marks the end, not the beginning. Even if this was an academic paper, “analysis of the relevant text” should come first so a conclusion can be drawn from that. If I put “conclusion” at first, then that would be an assumption or a hypothesis, not a conclusion.
What is remarkable today is just how poor our written grammar is - and how that poverty in language reflects in the way we speak. Add to that the prophetic phonological dial of the babbling crowd, and tongues' transcends into unfathomable mystery. Whereas a publication of The Pilgrims Progress published for 11 year old children from 1867 is beyond many adults today. We have mistaken statistical historical illiteracy rates for stupidity of those who did read and write. That must be because we are special or something!
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I believe SHE BELIEVES in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I have not read all the posts as I am still replying to those who have replied to me so I am coming from what she has written to me and a quick lookover of some others and from what I saw it seemed she speaks to the remnant, the foreknown and justified. Many are called (she isn't speaking of/to them) but few are chosen (she is speaking to/of them). "before you were born I knew you..."
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
That is what I have seen. I will have to get back with you when I have time to go back and look at the discussions between the both of you. But from my point of view at the time, yes, it came off as harsh. I will get back with you.
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
That is what I have seen. I will have to get back with you when I have time to go back and look at the discussions between the both of you. But from my point of view at the time, yes, it came off as harsh. I will get back with you.
So of ALL the numbers in the book of Revelation, only 144,000 is symbolic, is that right?
Okay, bare with me. Lets compare the 144,000 and the Great Multitude with the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25. There are two groups shown in Matthew chapter 25:1-13, similar to the two groups of Christians depicted in Revelation chapter 7.
There are some very familiar symbols in the Matthew description, which makes it easier to interpret who is being described and provide a good starting place to consider these two groups of Christians. First we have ten virgins with lamps in Matthew. The use of virgins as a symbol (2 Cor. 11:2) corresponds to those who’ve dedicated their life to Jesus the bridegroom (Revelation 19:7), and the number ten signifies that these virgins represent the sum total of all of the virgins. However, the virgins are divided into two groups – wise virgins and foolish virgins.
All the virgins have lamps representing the word of God (Psalm 119:105, 2 Peter 1:19) and all of them are awakened by the announcement of the bridegroom’s presence outside the door (cf. Revelation 3:20). However, the foolish virgins have brought insufficient oil with them for their lamps. The oil is the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 6:1-3, 2 Cor. 1:21-22) and evidently the foolish virgins lack the same spirit of commitment as the wise virgins.
Matthew places this parable in the same context with signs (Matthew chapter 24) and with other parables (Matthew chapter 25) of Christ’s return. That is the sense of this parable, also, for all of the virgins are waiting for the bridegroom to return.
The foolish virgins experience difficulties when the bridegroom arrives at the house at the stroke of midnight (cf. Song of Solomon 5:2-7). Their lamps are sputtering from a lack of oil, which suggests they are having difficulty understanding everything happening at the time. They go to get more oil in the marketplace (the parallel in Revelation seven would be the great multitude going out into the great tribulation). While they are gone the bridegroom takes the wise virgins to the wedding feast and the door is closed to the foolish virgins.
Note that throughout the parable they never cease to be virgins. They are genuinely loyal to Christ, but seem to lack the same degree or spirit (oil) of zeal and commitment that the wise virgins manifest, and they are shut out from going in to the wedding. So this parable suggests something different from the traditional view of the church… the understanding that all Christians are members of the bride of Christ. In the case of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, there are two “classes” of Christians… and not all of them are part of the bride and the wedding.
So how do we account for these foolish virgins? Is the entire explanation for the existence of this group based solely on this parable? Consider some other examples from the scriptures –
• In Psalm 45 we have also a description of a wedding feast for the king’s daughter. In verse 14 we read “she will be led to the king in embroidered work; the virgins her companions who follow her shall be brought to you.” The Psalm is rich with metaphor, and if the bride is the wise virgins of the parable in Matthew, then who do the “virgins her companions who follow her” represent if not the foolish virgins?
• In 1 Corinthians 3:14 and 15 we have an example of two individuals that build on the foundation of Jesus Christ (verse 11). One of these individuals builds with quality materials and the other builds with inferior materials. The one who builds with quality materials receives a reward. The one who builds with inferior materials has their work destroyed, but they are still saved… although through the fire of trials (1 Peter 4:12).
These passages bear a striking similarity to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew chapter 25 and the great multitude in Revelation chapter seven – in Psalm 45 we have the bride and then her virgin companions who are not the bride. In 1 Corinthians chapter 3 we have those who are rewarded as opposed to those who seem to be barely saved from destruction (1 Cor. 3:17).
Let’s compare what we’ve just considered with Revelation chapter seven and see if we can draw similar conclusions on this subject. In Revelation chapter 7, the 144,000 are described as selected from the twelve tribes of Israel. Throughout the book of Revelation, the Israel described within its pages does not seem to represent the literal nation of Israel, but rather spiritual Israel or the church (cf. Romans 2:28-29, 9:6-8, Galatians 6:16, Philippians 3:3, 135 Colossians 2:11, Revelation 2:9). As in other places throughout Revelation, it makes much more sense to interpret the tribes in chapter seven as spiritual Israel.
As in Matthew chapter 25, there are two groups of people described in the chapter. In Revelation chapter seven they are described as the 144,000 (7:1-8) and the great multitude (7:9-17), and these two groups are readily distinguished from each other. In one instance the group has a specific number (the 144,000), and this is contrasted with the great multitude that is a group “which no man could number.” The first group is sealed before the winds of trouble are loosed (verses 1-3) and the other group experiences “great tribulation” (verse 14).
In addition we have descriptions of the bride of Christ from elsewhere that differ significantly from the description of the great multitude in chapter seven. For example the bride of Christ is everywhere described as seated on thrones and reigning (Revelation 3:21, 20:4), while in this chapter the great multitude are described as ”before the throne” yet worshipping in God’s temple (verse 15). The bride of Christ is described as those “who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy” (Revelation 3:4). In contrast the great multitude is described as those whose robes were soiled and they “have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).
The book of Revelation is not the only place where we have an example of those who need to have their robes washed. In the book of Jude we have a description of those who have not been completely faithful and who needed special repentance and cleansing. The book of Jude (verses 22-23) speaks of various examples of those who are straying in some way from the love of God (verse 21). It specifically makes mention of having mercy on those whose “garment [is] polluted [or “spotted”] by the flesh.”
This idea of cleansing from the actions of the flesh is elsewhere depicted in 1 Corinthians 5:5. Here we have the description of the unrepentant man whom the church had not confronted. Paul speaks of “the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Paul is dealing with a specific individual rather than discussing a representative group in this instance, and he does not judge this man’s ultimate destiny. However, the verse does convey the idea of repentance and forgiveness and cleansing from the flesh as the outcome of suffering (tribulation).
Of course, our description of the great multitude could be criticized in our so[1]called enlightened age for not being properly egalitarian. Yet the scriptures do not shy away from the concept of reward (2 John 1:8) or even differing rewards. For an example, take some to read and ponder the parable of the pounds in Luke 19:11-27.
The problem with our perception here seems to be twofold.
Okay, bare with me. Lets compare the 144,000 and the Great Multitude with the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25. There are two groups shown in Matthew chapter 25:1-13, similar to the two groups of Christians depicted in Revelation chapter 7.
There are some very familiar symbols in the Matthew description, which makes it easier to interpret who is being described and provide a good starting place to consider these two groups of Christians. First we have ten virgins with lamps in Matthew. The use of virgins as a symbol (2 Cor. 11:2) corresponds to those who’ve dedicated their life to Jesus the bridegroom (Revelation 19:7), and the number ten signifies that these virgins represent the sum total of all of the virgins. However, the virgins are divided into two groups – wise virgins and foolish virgins.
All the virgins have lamps representing the word of God (Psalm 119:105, 2 Peter 1:19) and all of them are awakened by the announcement of the bridegroom’s presence outside the door (cf. Revelation 3:20). However, the foolish virgins have brought insufficient oil with them for their lamps. The oil is the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 6:1-3, 2 Cor. 1:21-22) and evidently the foolish virgins lack the same spirit of commitment as the wise virgins.
Matthew places this parable in the same context with signs (Matthew chapter 24) and with other parables (Matthew chapter 25) of Christ’s return. That is the sense of this parable, also, for all of the virgins are waiting for the bridegroom to return.
The foolish virgins experience difficulties when the bridegroom arrives at the house at the stroke of midnight (cf. Song of Solomon 5:2-7). Their lamps are sputtering from a lack of oil, which suggests they are having difficulty understanding everything happening at the time. They go to get more oil in the marketplace (the parallel in Revelation seven would be the great multitude going out into the great tribulation). While they are gone the bridegroom takes the wise virgins to the wedding feast and the door is closed to the foolish virgins.
Note that throughout the parable they never cease to be virgins. They are genuinely loyal to Christ, but seem to lack the same degree or spirit (oil) of zeal and commitment that the wise virgins manifest, and they are shut out from going in to the wedding. So this parable suggests something different from the traditional view of the church… the understanding that all Christians are members of the bride of Christ. In the case of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, there are two “classes” of Christians… and not all of them are part of the bride and the wedding.
So how do we account for these foolish virgins? Is the entire explanation for the existence of this group based solely on this parable? Consider some other examples from the scriptures –
• In Psalm 45 we have also a description of a wedding feast for the king’s daughter. In verse 14 we read “she will be led to the king in embroidered work; the virgins her companions who follow her shall be brought to you.” The Psalm is rich with metaphor, and if the bride is the wise virgins of the parable in Matthew, then who do the “virgins her companions who follow her” represent if not the foolish virgins?
• In 1 Corinthians 3:14 and 15 we have an example of two individuals that build on the foundation of Jesus Christ (verse 11). One of these individuals builds with quality materials and the other builds with inferior materials. The one who builds with quality materials receives a reward. The one who builds with inferior materials has their work destroyed, but they are still saved… although through the fire of trials (1 Peter 4:12).
These passages bear a striking similarity to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew chapter 25 and the great multitude in Revelation chapter seven – in Psalm 45 we have the bride and then her virgin companions who are not the bride. In 1 Corinthians chapter 3 we have those who are rewarded as opposed to those who seem to be barely saved from destruction (1 Cor. 3:17).
Let’s compare what we’ve just considered with Revelation chapter seven and see if we can draw similar conclusions on this subject. In Revelation chapter 7, the 144,000 are described as selected from the twelve tribes of Israel. Throughout the book of Revelation, the Israel described within its pages does not seem to represent the literal nation of Israel, but rather spiritual Israel or the church (cf. Romans 2:28-29, 9:6-8, Galatians 6:16, Philippians 3:3, 135 Colossians 2:11, Revelation 2:9). As in other places throughout Revelation, it makes much more sense to interpret the tribes in chapter seven as spiritual Israel.
As in Matthew chapter 25, there are two groups of people described in the chapter. In Revelation chapter seven they are described as the 144,000 (7:1-8) and the great multitude (7:9-17), and these two groups are readily distinguished from each other. In one instance the group has a specific number (the 144,000), and this is contrasted with the great multitude that is a group “which no man could number.” The first group is sealed before the winds of trouble are loosed (verses 1-3) and the other group experiences “great tribulation” (verse 14).
In addition we have descriptions of the bride of Christ from elsewhere that differ significantly from the description of the great multitude in chapter seven. For example the bride of Christ is everywhere described as seated on thrones and reigning (Revelation 3:21, 20:4), while in this chapter the great multitude are described as ”before the throne” yet worshipping in God’s temple (verse 15). The bride of Christ is described as those “who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy” (Revelation 3:4). In contrast the great multitude is described as those whose robes were soiled and they “have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).
The book of Revelation is not the only place where we have an example of those who need to have their robes washed. In the book of Jude we have a description of those who have not been completely faithful and who needed special repentance and cleansing. The book of Jude (verses 22-23) speaks of various examples of those who are straying in some way from the love of God (verse 21). It specifically makes mention of having mercy on those whose “garment [is] polluted [or “spotted”] by the flesh.”
This idea of cleansing from the actions of the flesh is elsewhere depicted in 1 Corinthians 5:5. Here we have the description of the unrepentant man whom the church had not confronted. Paul speaks of “the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Paul is dealing with a specific individual rather than discussing a representative group in this instance, and he does not judge this man’s ultimate destiny. However, the verse does convey the idea of repentance and forgiveness and cleansing from the flesh as the outcome of suffering (tribulation).
Of course, our description of the great multitude could be criticized in our so[1]called enlightened age for not being properly egalitarian. Yet the scriptures do not shy away from the concept of reward (2 John 1:8) or even differing rewards. For an example, take some to read and ponder the parable of the pounds in Luke 19:11-27.
The problem with our perception here seems to be twofold.
- There is a lack of humility on our part. The idea of accepting your place in the world (Luke 14:7-11) is a lost principle in our society and to a large extent in the Christian church. We tend to place ourselves at the center of our world. Christians in the past were much more inclined to see themselves as parts of a larger whole. They were more likely to see themselves as essential parts of a community that was greater than their individual importance.
- We have a tendency to accept a secular view that equates a person’s role with their value or worth. This is not a biblical concept. The bible makes a clear distinction between someone’s position and whether that person is valued as an important part of the community. Take some time to read and ponder another passage, this one regarding the body of Christ in 1 Cor. 12:4-26 (and on through 1 Cor. 13:7).
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Dear Brother,
Please help me out here as I appreciate your willingness to assist my understanding - thank you.
Please take one point at a time per post so as to make for pin point accuracy which you and I are both shooting for = think archery, one arrow at a time with our complete focus on the very Center of the target = Bullseye is the Goal = everytime.
Overloading a post with many words can lose the actual purpose of the post/question/quest at hand.
So I will only address the 10 Virgins of Matt ch25.
At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. 4But the wise ones took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9‘No,’ said the wise ones, ‘or there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10But while they were on their way to buy it, the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
11Later the other virgins arrived and said, ‘Lord, lord, open the door for us!’
12But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’
13Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
A.) Parable
B.) Parable of 'What' or pertaining to 'What'? = His Second Coming
C.) 10 Virgins = 5 wise + 5 foolish
D.) Oil = Light = Holy Spirit = 100% AFFIRMED by Scripture
E.) Wise/Wisdom = Filled with the Holy Spirit = Acts = Gospel of John
F.) Foolish = religion vs filled with the HS
G.) His Coming = Matt ch24, 1 Thess, 2 Thess, Heb ch9, 1 John ch2 -ch3, 1 Cor ch15 and more
I.) Only 5 wise are gathered in the Door
J.) Jesus shuts the Door
K.) 5 foolish are not accepted
L.) 5 foolish missed His Second Coming
M.) 5 foolish are not given another chance for the Second Coming is COMPLETE in Him Only, for ALL the Saints at His Coming
O.) Tribulation Saints are not the 5 foolish = this is a lie and should immediately be rejected as such
P.) PAUL the Apostle speaking with Authority of HS says do not believe the lie of pre-trib rapture then trib saints = 2 Tim 2:14-19
Q.) QUEST = return to Matt ch24, 1 Thess, 2 Thess, Heb ch9, 1 John ch2 -ch3, 1 Cor ch15 and more
again
Q.) QUEST for Truth = 2 Tim 2:14-19 is in direct opposition to pre-trib rapture/trib saints left behind
Please help me out here as I appreciate your willingness to assist my understanding - thank you.
Please take one point at a time per post so as to make for pin point accuracy which you and I are both shooting for = think archery, one arrow at a time with our complete focus on the very Center of the target = Bullseye is the Goal = everytime.
Overloading a post with many words can lose the actual purpose of the post/question/quest at hand.
So I will only address the 10 Virgins of Matt ch25.
At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. 4But the wise ones took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9‘No,’ said the wise ones, ‘or there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10But while they were on their way to buy it, the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
11Later the other virgins arrived and said, ‘Lord, lord, open the door for us!’
12But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’
13Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
A.) Parable
B.) Parable of 'What' or pertaining to 'What'? = His Second Coming
C.) 10 Virgins = 5 wise + 5 foolish
D.) Oil = Light = Holy Spirit = 100% AFFIRMED by Scripture
E.) Wise/Wisdom = Filled with the Holy Spirit = Acts = Gospel of John
F.) Foolish = religion vs filled with the HS
G.) His Coming = Matt ch24, 1 Thess, 2 Thess, Heb ch9, 1 John ch2 -ch3, 1 Cor ch15 and more
I.) Only 5 wise are gathered in the Door
J.) Jesus shuts the Door
K.) 5 foolish are not accepted
L.) 5 foolish missed His Second Coming
M.) 5 foolish are not given another chance for the Second Coming is COMPLETE in Him Only, for ALL the Saints at His Coming
O.) Tribulation Saints are not the 5 foolish = this is a lie and should immediately be rejected as such
P.) PAUL the Apostle speaking with Authority of HS says do not believe the lie of pre-trib rapture then trib saints = 2 Tim 2:14-19
Q.) QUEST = return to Matt ch24, 1 Thess, 2 Thess, Heb ch9, 1 John ch2 -ch3, 1 Cor ch15 and more
again
Q.) QUEST for Truth = 2 Tim 2:14-19 is in direct opposition to pre-trib rapture/trib saints left behind
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Rhomphaeam said:
Ne vous sentez pas obligé de vous précipiter, camarade. Madame Guillotine a déjà parlé. La tête est déjà dans le panier.
Hey guys, no speaking in tongues unless there is an interpreter present. 1 Cor 14.
Ne vous sentez pas obligé de vous précipiter, camarade. Madame Guillotine a déjà parlé. La tête est déjà dans le panier.
Hey guys, no speaking in tongues unless there is an interpreter present. 1 Cor 14.
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Rhomphaeam said:
Ne vous sentez pas obligé de vous précipiter, camarade. Madame Guillotine a déjà parlé. La tête est déjà dans le panier.
Hey guys, no speaking in tongues unless there is an interpreter present. 1 Cor 14.
Ne vous sentez pas obligé de vous précipiter, camarade. Madame Guillotine a déjà parlé. La tête est déjà dans le panier.
Hey guys, no speaking in tongues unless there is an interpreter present. 1 Cor 14.
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OK. I do see the problem with the Levites being sealed and I see a problem with sealing taking place in breast and shoulder. And I see other problems as well. I apologize for my part in not reading the entire thread and jumping the gun with my assessment of your response. Please accept this apology and know, I will be more cautious next time. I admit I get caught up in the moment and truly love to see, what I perceive as PURE JOY coming from love of the Father and to hear another Christian speak of being 'sealed' by the words of God, having had an experience myself and ..well, here we are. All I can say now is, REBUKE when REBUKING is due, be it male or female as we are all the sons of God and a soul saved is a soul saved. It's funny how I want to thank you but then again I don't. AND SO, Thank you for the rebuke and the patience that followed. Let's pray that love leads to HIS TRUTH. I remember when I believed they ate an apple...
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