Do we stress baptism enough?

2ndTimothyGroup · Mar 20, 2022

Absolutely.

I hear you. It also sounds like you're quoting Romans chapter 7, which most people misunderstand as Paul lacking any sense of self-control. It is very risky business for a person to say, "Yes. I'm a raging alcoholic. I have sex with multiple women. I can't stop looking at pornography. I can't stop hating people. I can't learn to forgive" yet they are justified in referring to themselves as True Christians because their heart tells them that they're guilty. That's the moral law . . . not the Laws of the Spiritual of Life (which are Effectual). The Laws of the Spirit of Life do what the laws written upon stone could not do. The Laws of the Spirit of Life create change where as the Laws of Moses could not. Even Adolf Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Gary Ridgeway had the moral law, for they all hid their crimes. They knew their behaviors were wrong.

We're also dealing with a certain amount of time, as well. Meaning, how must time do we give a person (and their condemning heart) to actually change? Is six months enough time to be Transformed (Romans 12:2)? Or, 1 year? How about 2 years? Or, 5 years? At what point does a person finally surrender and tell themselves, "You know, I don't think that God has given me a New Heart SO THAT (NLT) I will be CAUSED (KJV) to stop living the way that I do and am, and start living a New, Holy, and Transformed Life."

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

This is precisely what we are NOT being taught by "pastors" of today. We are NOT being taught that we WILL be changed, and not by our own power, but by the Power of the Spirit . . . True Circumcision.

The below Scripture is SO important to understanding our Faith (for both Jew and Gentile):

Romans 2:27-29 NLT - "In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it. For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

If we do not see Transformation in our thinking and behavior, there is only one reason: We have NOT received the Circumcision of Christ. When, oh when, will our apostate "pastors" begin to teach us the Truth?

pottersclay · Mar 20, 2022

Wansvic said:

To tell you the truth i look at baptism as a preparation for this to take place but the act its self is not what does it.
Not that we are baptised but why have we been baptised. Out of obedience through faith in Christ.
Possible a public display of the beginning of reconciliation.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 20, 2022

pottersclay said:

yes it’s the promise that matters if we believe the promise regarding baptism the action becomes an act of faith ( believing the promise )

what it actually does for us is give us a clear conscience a word from God saying “ if you get baptized you have done what I said will remit your sins “

the act is important but only because it is what God said to do and have your sins remitted

What makes it matter is faith in the promise of remission through what Christ has done and said for us and where he is now

“which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of we know he said get baptized for remission of sins and then we believe and do that , it is a pledge from God to remit our sins. And we have confirmed our faith in him believing and acting upon that belief

if we don’t know what it’s for it’s not going to have the effect intended if we think it doesn’t mean anything it won’t , if we hear and believe what he said it’s for and act on it we’re acting in faith

anytime we hear what God said and act it is faith we are acting in because we believe the promise he made there’s always word and then a blessing if we do it. Of we believe we will act of we don’t hear and believe the action is irrelevant not coming from faith

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what makes baptism matter it’s coming from Gods word and nkt
Mans reasoning

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we believe that the act is a confirmation that we believe what he said and so we have now his pledge made by his word. We are taking a step of faith based on what he said

“(for we walk by faith, not by sight

”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we come to the conclusion what he said is always the truth and will always be dependable we are going to hear and accept and walk by faith. And receive his promises of those who do that

BillG · Mar 20, 2022

ResidentAlien said:

I agree.

Paul states

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Would you baptise someone straight away who confessed/beleives as per the above?

ResidentAlien · Mar 20, 2022

BillG said:

I don't know why not.

BillG · Mar 20, 2022

ResidentAlien said:

Me neither.

Alas it's not that common these days to do so.

Wansvic · Mar 20, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

God has always required obedience to various commands in different dispensations of time. David was a man after God's heart because he acted in obedience to God's commands. It is important to understand that obedience is better than sacrifice:

1 Sam 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,

NT believers are required to act in obedience to God's command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin.

2ndTimothyGroup · Mar 20, 2022

Wansvic said:

Ok, but then what do we do with Paul's teaching of how there is only one Faith?

Ephesians 4:4-5 NKJV - "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism . . ."

The above shows that just as there is one Lord, there is only one Faith and one Baptism.

Further, we are told to have the SAME Faith as Abraham, but was Abraham baptized in water? Of course not. Instead, he received the Circumcision of Christ, which is precisely what physical circumcision reflects.

Romans 4:12 NLT - "And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised."

Doesn't it seem like those of us who hold our position, that we have good and logical reasons for such? Can't you at least acknowledge that what I have presented is reasonable . . . if not the obvious Truth?

GRACE_ambassador · Mar 20, 2022

Runningman said:

Stressing baptism enough?

IF my study of ONE Baptism "For today does not seal the deal,"
then these statements Will Surely Do So, eh?:

1) "those who are water baptized should ensure that the one who
water baptized them is a real Christian"

This just "adds to the stress," as a New-born babe In Christ has no idea
"how to judge their baptizer" as to whether they are saved or not!
Wait! Isn't that God's Work To Judge?

2) "those who are not real Christians have no authority to perform
valid water baptisms"

No stress here, as The ONE Baptism Today Is God's OPERATION, anyway.

3) "and to add to my previous post: those who are not real believers
should not be water baptized either."

Ditto like #2, making this a moot point, as there is There Is Only
ONE Baptism Today, Under God's GRACE, and it is Certainly Not water.
---------------------------------------------
My experiences: first "baptism" FORCED on me in RCC.

Second "baptism" AFTER (although I didn't know it at the time, of) my
ONE Baptism (By The Holy Spirit)...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑
...as a young "babe (saved" for several months!), I was (referred to by a
"lost" family member, and) shown by a "lost" church of Christ preacher,
from The BIBLE, that "I should be water baptized," BUT, not doing it "as
FAST as he wanted me to (to be saved Right Now?)," I waited until the
Sunday service...

...On top that off, they let me "say a few words" to the congregation:
"I was glad I was on the winning team." Wait! Truth is I am Not the
Judge of my relatives, Nor their preacher, but of false doctrine? So,
please ignore the above "lost" statements = my bad

(see how STRESSful this is becoming?)

My THIRD water baptism, since "the FIRST TWO were incorrect(?)"
was RE-Done at a baptist church. Wow, what do "babies" know,
anyway? So:
-------------------------------------------
4) Bottom line: Since no one "knows" the real from the
UNreal christian, unless they are God, then The ONE Baptism,
By God's Holy Spirit, Sounds like Perfectly Sound Doctrine, does it not?

5) Hopefully I am sadly

mistaken, because, IF true, then
"men have replaced" God, In His OPERATION, "saying water instead
His Spirit," which would then be "blaspheming God's Word Of Truth."

This meaning then, that there are really TWO baptisms, today, Correct?
But then why is no one stressed over God's Math? ONE = two? How's that?

How long, then, will the stress continue about the Confusion of water?

GRACE And Peace...

Runningman · Mar 20, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

Nothing I said was a moot point and all of it was divinely inspired. Take it up with God if you don’t like it.

The facts remain that any water baptism needs to be performed “in the name” of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. “In the name of…” is not some set of magic words recited during the water baptism, but rather a sign of authenticity.

There is a difference between those who are something in name only and those who are not. And as always it’s entirely possible, even likely, for new converts to be led astray by false teachers, false prophets, false gospels, false doctrines, etc.

So when Jesus commanded His 11 apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit then there’s no room for fakers.

The baptizer shouldn’t be a fake “in name only” Christian, the one being baptized should not be a fake believer. Personal testimony, faith as a mustard seed, and a declaration of faith is enough to be water baptized.

GRACE_ambassador · Mar 21, 2022

Runningman said:

And, a fake declaration of faith is enough to be water baptized. Got it!

2ndTimothyGroup · Mar 21, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

That's what I did. My "church" didn't teach me the True Gospel, nor did they tell me about True commitment, thus, immediately after I was water baptized, with still wet hair, I walked one block down the street and stole a bag of rubber bands for my paper route business. I was 12 years old. I wish that my "church" hadn't ever allowed me to be baptized, as I then spent the next four-plus decades believing that I was Truly saved. Unfortunately, I was not. I then learned about all kinds of sin and simply became worse . . . and worse . . . and worse . . . and worse . . . and worse. But when a person Truly receives the Circumcision of Christ, they are Transformed . . . they improve. Why? Because the Sinful Nature, the Adamic Curse (Romans 5) of the Lord is disassociated with the heart. Regeneration occurs at this point.

Colossians 2:11 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." THIS is what water baptism represents, just as did physical circumcision for all Holy men and women mentioned in the Great Hall of Faith, Hebrews chapter 11.

Runningman · Mar 21, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

I said in post #100 that really only God knows who the real believers are. It’s like the tares who look and act like wheat, but are just fakers. It isn’t our job to judge people in that matter. Visually people can’t tell one way or another, for 100% certainty.

However, in making disciples, it should be obvious if you’re with someone who is genuine, sincere, and eager to learn the Word of God. People don’t just spend their time faking being disciples, but if they do that is extremely cunning or insane and we have something else more sinister on our hands.

All of that being said, if someone confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus and says they believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead then your only course of action should be to believe them and give them a water baptism immediately.

Unless, of course, you’re saying you are bold enough to call someone a liar to their face and risk calling God a liar. It sounds like you’re willing to take that gamble.

1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Do you dare take the risk of calling the Holy Spirit a liar when you say someone has a fake declaration of faith that Jesus is Lord?

ResidentAlien · Mar 21, 2022

The Lord told us to baptize, not try and figure out who's sincere and who isn't. It's our job to teach them and love them and make disciples of them. If a person isn't sincere, that's on them.

2ndTimothyGroup · Mar 21, 2022

Runningman said:

I would never do a person who said those things such a disservice as baptizing them. If I should ever have the opportunity to baptize a person, I would ONLY do so if they came to fully understand the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ (the ACTUAL Gospel). If a person doesn't understand that a Romans 12:2 Transformation is to be expected, then its a no go.

BillG · Mar 21, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Acts 8:34-38
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

2ndTimothyGroup · Mar 21, 2022

BillG said:

Acts 8:34-38
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

That's a good section of the story.

Runningman · Mar 21, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

The Bible has multiple examples of those who are believers in Jesus getting water baptized. They heard the gospel, believed it, then got water baptized. How is what you said different than what I said? What disservice do you think I would have done by water baptizing someone who says they are a believer in the gospel?

2ndTimothyGroup · Mar 21, 2022

Runningman said:

I'll copy and paste what I've already written:

"If I should ever have the opportunity to baptize a person, I would ONLY do so if they came to fully understand the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ (the ACTUAL Gospel)."

"My "church" didn't teach me the True Gospel, nor did they tell me about True commitment, thus, immediately after I was water baptized, with still wet hair, I walked one block down the street and stole a bag of rubber bands for my paper route business. I was 12 years old. I wish that my "church" hadn't ever allowed me to be baptized, as I then spent the next four-plus decades believing that I was Truly saved. Unfortunately, I was not. I then learned about all kinds of sin and simply became worse . . . and worse . . . and worse . . . and worse . . . and worse."

These things answer your questions perfectly.

Runningman · Mar 21, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

I'll copy and paste what I've already written:

"If I should ever have the opportunity to baptize a person, I would ONLY do so if they came to fully understand the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ (the ACTUAL Gospel)."

"My "church" didn't teach me the True Gospel, nor did they tell me about True commitment, thus, immediately after I was water baptized, with still wet hair, I walked one block down the street and stole a bag of rubber bands for my paper route business. I was 12 years old. I wish that my "church" hadn't ever allowed me to be baptized, as I then spent the next four-plus decades believing that I was Truly saved. Unfortunately, I was not. I then learned about all kinds of sin and simply became worse . . . and worse . . . and worse . . . and worse . . . and worse."

These things answer your questions perfectly.

How does understanding any of those things now prevent you from continuing a life of sin? I mean, are you sinless now? Sorry if those seem like dumb questions, but I am trying to understand what you believe.

Do we stress baptism enough?

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