Alcohol - a world wide phenomena

[posthuman]

Hypothesis is:

Since God is love, God is Just/Merciful never violating either one of those attributes (Jesus) or
If God is not really love, God cannot be both Just & Merciful at the same time without violating either one, for instance, if God administers Justice (as in Lucifer/satan's case), God was not merciful, and if God shews mercy to human sinners, allowing them back into heaven (though Lucifer/satan was cast out of heaven for sin), then God is not Just (satan)

what you put here seems like an interesting pursuit, but it is really unclear & sorely needs some editing - are you meaning to just say,

• Satan's hypothesis: justice is incompatible with mercy

?



if that's the case, then perhaps you ought to consider that you have been presenting the opinion that justice demands a single drop of alcohol in any person's mouth condemns them to hell.
so -- is your position one that allows for mercy?
if it is not, then which side of the hypothesis does your view actually land on? God's or Satan's?

 

[peldom10]

"Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him; but the things that come out of a man, these are what defile him.” - Mark 7:15

Your comparison tells me you don't comprehend the meaning of Mark 7;15.

There are three rules recommended for Bible study;

1) Take the Bible literally wherever possible. If typical, figurative or symbolic language is used...look for a literal interpretation it intends to convey.
2) Look for other scripture to interpret scripture.
3) Do not spiritualize the Bible.

 

[Magenta]

Yes...you are a perfect example.

Liar. I have not denied that overconsumption of alcohol is strongly cautioned against, and that sobriety is recommended.

I provided a thorough representation from Scripture on the matter of alcohol and drinking in this thread. In fact, I was the first to do so. Even Solomon's wise counsel was not to not drink at all, but not to join those who drink too much. That point has been made multiple times throughout this thread, and other threads like it. Any who want to say that alcohol is strictly forbidden and a sin at any time in any amount are quite simply willfully blind.

 

[Dino246]

Your comparison tells me you don't comprehend the meaning of Mark 7;15.

There are three rules recommended for Bible study;

1) Take the Bible literally wherever possible. If figurative, symbolic or typical language is used...look for a literal interpretation it intends to convey.
2) Look for other scripture to interpret scripture.
3) Do not spiritualize the Bible.

From what source did you get these ‘rules’?

 

[peldom10]

From what source did you get these ‘rules’?

Their value is self evident. If you don't like them no one says you must use them. They are for folks who wish to approach the Bible in a sincere passionate manner of use.

I have found them very useful.

 

[posthuman]

Actually, you are doing fine in the forum decorum department in how that you conduct yourself.

i fully concur with this assessment.

setting aside any disagreement about the matters being discussed, we have a number of frequent posters who have far worse manners than @ChristianSubMissionary -- all of us at some time or another speak without grace, but even though we may find fault with his thinking, he is thoughtful, and doesn't often simply lash out in anger.

 

[posthuman]

From what source did you get these ‘rules’?

just noticed this -- i'm currently on p.20 trying to catch up completely.

it's a bit off topic ((does anyone care at this point lol)) but my church hands out a brief set of rules; i can put you in touch with our teacher, who wrote them; he really does love receiving letters, especially if you want to tell him he's an idiot:

Rules For Reading Scripture ​

1. John 8:24, John 8:58 Where you begin. Jesus IS God. Always IS God. Never is NOT God. He is Omniscient, Omnipotent & Omnipresent. He is ALWAYS just, good and has NO sin or fear (which is sin) ever in Him. ​
2. When God/Christ asks a question it is never for Himself. He knows the answer (see rule one). The question is not for Him but for us, He is teaching. ​
3. When God/Christ weeps it is not for Himself. It is for the lost/Israel. ​
4. When God/Christ intervenes something extraordinary has occurred. A great truth has been protected. A great sin has been committed. Or a combination of both. ​
5. The purpose of Israel and the Law is to teach of Christ, in Portraits, Types, Shadows and Doctrine. ​

 

[Dino246]

Their value is self evident. If you don't like them no one says you must use them. They are for folks who wish to approach the Bible in a sincere passionate manner of use.

I have found them very useful.

No source? Self-evident? Insulting implication? Not gonna fly. Take a class, or read a book. I recommend ‘Living by the Book’ by Howard and William Hendricks… and a good dose of humility.

 

[kaylagrl]

If need be, easing physical pain is a good thing. However, numbing emotional pain is what I call the definition of addiction. That's how I see it, but I'm far from knowing everything.

Here's the thing, a person doesn't know they are an alcoholic till they take their first drink. My uncle was a life long alcoholic. My issue with alcohol is that there is a very fine line between sober and buzzed. And very few people seem to know that line. I heard a preacher once who said he didn't have an issue with drinking. One night he went out with some other pastor friends and they all drank. The food and fellowship with the drink got away from them and the next thing they had a good buzz going. They left the restaurant and a cop stopped one of them, a pastor now, and he started to get mouthy. They came close to getting in trouble with the cop that night because they were not sober. The pastor said he thought about his testimony that night, the way that were all acting and he said he knew they would never act that way had they been fully sober. He changed his mind that night and stopped drinking. Very fine line that most people think they can walk, but in the end, they can't.

 

[Magenta]

i fully concur with this assessment.

setting aside any disagreement about the matters being discussed, we have a number of frequent posters who have far worse manners than @ChristianSubMissionary -- all of us at some time or another speak without grace, but even though we may find fault with his thinking, he is thoughtful, and doesn't often simply lash out in anger.

I found his assessment of your "religion" to be disgusting waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy over the top. Your veneration of the living Lord is clearly shown in your reverence for the revealed written Word of God, and your understanding and presentation of both are admirable.

 

[Magenta]

Here's the thing, a person doesn't know they are an alcoholic till they take their first drink. My uncle was a life long alcoholic. My issue with alcohol is that there is a very fine line between sober and buzzed. And very few people seem to know that line. I heard a preacher once who said he didn't have an issue with drinking. One night he went out with some other pastor friends and they all drank. The food and fellowship with the drink got away from them and the next thing they had a good buzz going. They left the restaurant and a cop stopped one of them, a pastor now, and he started to get mouthy. They came close to getting in trouble with the cop that night because they were not sober. The pastor said he thought about his testimony that night, the way that were all acting and he said he knew they would never act that way had they been fully sober. He changed his mind that night and stopped drinking. Very fine line that most people think they can walk, but in the end, they can't.

Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

 

[posthuman]

Read the text again, s-l-o-w-l-y:

Joel 1:5: "Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth."

It is in parallelism.

Joel 1:5:

"[01A] Awake,
[AA1] ye
[BB1] drunkards,
[CC1] and weep;
[CC2] and howl,
[AA2] all ye
[BB2] drinkers of wine,
[DD1] because of
[EE1] the new wine;
[DD2] for
[EE2] it is
[01B] cut off from your mouth."

The portions are equal and defining one another.

The reason that they 'sleep' (symbol of death) is because they drink alcoholic wine (naturally & spiritually). God tells them to awake and cry because they have no grape juice (new wine, the symbol of the pure life and doctrine of God, even Jesus Christ), for it was taken away from them because they loved not sobriety and purity and truth of the righteous life, but instead loved inebriation, intoxication, false doctrine and vain 'living'. If the good is rejected only evil remains, and if light rejected, only darkness.

John 12:35: "Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth."

Notice the parallelism.

The "drunkards" = "drinkers of wine (alcohol)". Any amount begins to undermine the entire wellbeing of the person, in heart (mind/judgment) and body. A drinker of wine (alcohol) in this text is automatically a drunkard by definition.

The "new wine" (juice of the grapes) is in stark contrast to the "wine" (alcohol).

I told you that lack of true study leads you to your faulty position. You read the text not to understand it, but to prove your a priori and mannerism of 'living'. It is what drunkards do
(naturally & spiritually).

i do not agree with your interpretation here at all.

the winebibbers do not weep because they are out of grape juice.
they weep because they are out of wine.

in parallel,

this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(John 3:19)
​

the wicked do not weep because they have no light.
what they desire is darkness.

here in Joel is just another confirmation that 'new wine' is referring to a definitely alcoholic substance.



surely a man can study much and come away without understanding. if a person's counsel is darkened, he can make it even darker by adding more and more corruption to his thinking, exchanging more and more truth for more and more lies.
in the same way that the drunkards mentioned in Joel 1:5 consider 'new wine' to be a replacement for life.

it seems that you also are susceptible to misreading texts because of your own a priori position.

 

[Oblio]

There must be different gases, because vehicle gas in a small amount swallowed will kill you.

Unless they were lying, the video clearly showed a woman who regularly drank gasoline.

 

[posthuman]

Acts 2:13: "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

Notice the word "mocking".

i rather think if they were saying 'these men are full of grapes'
they would only be mocking themselves & their own understanding

it's common knowledge that drinking clean water does not result in inebriation.

 

[Oblio]

Your comparison tells me you don't comprehend the meaning of Mark 7;15.

There are three rules recommended for Bible study;

1) Take the Bible literally wherever possible. If typical, figurative or symbolic language is used...look for a literal interpretation it intends to convey.
2) Look for other scripture to interpret scripture.
3) Do not spiritualize the Bible.

In my understanding, if you don't understand the simple and clear meaning of Mark 7:15, which is that neither food or anything else one puts in their body makes them unclean, as per the Jewish law, but the sins such as listed in Mark 7, then you don't understand it.
"20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.” - Mark 7:20-23

 

[Oblio]

Here's the thing, a person doesn't know they are an alcoholic till they take their first drink. My uncle was a life long alcoholic. My issue with alcohol is that there is a very fine line between sober and buzzed. And very few people seem to know that line. I heard a preacher once who said he didn't have an issue with drinking. One night he went out with some other pastor friends and they all drank. The food and fellowship with the drink got away from them and the next thing they had a good buzz going. They left the restaurant and a cop stopped one of them, a pastor now, and he started to get mouthy. They came close to getting in trouble with the cop that night because they were not sober. The pastor said he thought about his testimony that night, the way that were all acting and he said he knew they would never act that way had they been fully sober. He changed his mind that night and stopped drinking. Very fine line that most people think they can walk, but in the end, they can't.

I've known many who drink responsibly. I don't drink, and I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Magenta]

There must be different gases, because vehicle gas in a small amount swallowed will kill you.

Swallowing gasoline can damage the inside of your body and cause permanent damage
to major organs. If a person swallows a large amount of gasoline, it may even cause death.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

That’s in the context? I missed it.

I think post gets that from his
pretext, not context.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

There must be different gases, because vehicle gas in a small amount swallowed will kill you.

Don't swallow the gaslighting.

 

[Magenta]

my church hands out a brief set of rules; i can put you in touch with our teacher, who wrote
them; he really does love receiving letters, especially if you want to tell him he's an idiot