'Reductionist' versus 'Complete' view of the Gospel

[Carry_Your_Name]

Please quote for me if Jesus Yeshua ever said we must be baptized in order to enter the Kingdom. I take His declaration to Nico Demas as a reference to be born again by the Holy Spirit and His gift to all who will accept it, from the cross. It was water and blood that issued from His side when the centurion speared Him. Praise our Savior and god Jesus, amen

That water baptism was a subtle reference of the cleansing rituals for the priests. Not only did they have to be thoroughly bathed, they even had to do a lot of manscaping before they enter the Tabernacle of Meeting. It's in Numbers 8:5-7. That's just a ritual, a public declaration of a new life in Christ. A real transforming power comes from the Holy Spirit.

 

[oyster67]

I know of no scripture that says that believing Jesus died for our sins is enough to save us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke
23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Wansvic]

That speaks of ...repentance ....why do you use that to deduce that baptism isn't necessary? That is violating the Bible because you are attempting to change God's word which is prohibited by Rev. 22; 18-19 and two other books of the Bible.
Not some asserting......it is clear the Bible demands baptism just as it demands repentance and righteous living;.

Get familiar with scriptures before posting and trying to miss lead folks with...non-biblical teaching thusly ;

Baptism is Required


Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

​

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;​

....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth​

​

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.​

​

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.​

​

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.​

​

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.​

​

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.​

Continue to plant and water those seeds! It is only through continuing to present scripture that truth will be revealed to many who do not yet see. For God's Word will not return void but will prosper where it is sent. (Isa. 55:11)

I would like to know where you found the following quote:

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;​

....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth.​

 

[Snacks]

There are millions which agree with...wrong...all the time. So what is new?
He doesn't know if the thief was baptized or not. The Bible doesn't give us that detail.
The thief could have been a..... back slider...who had repented, been baptized and fell in his commitment. Also, Christ could have gave him special dispensation, etc.
We cannot say he was not baptized. There is no prove of that.

What is so unusual or difficult about those conditions?

The beauty of God’s Word is its purity and simplicity. Jesus Christ promised the thief on the cross paradise. Your own statement, “Christ could have gave him special dispensation” validates my point, and yet you’re being argumentative in an effort to push your views on baptism with unsupported insinuations.

I don’t engage with people who sow seeds of discord in an effort to push their views. I rest in the peace of God. May you also enjoy His peace.

 

[Wansvic]

A more logical reply is quite simple, the thief praised Jesus on the cross in his saying, this Man had done no wrong, and in so declaring publicly, Jesus knew that he would have been baptized under other circumstances.

Please quote for me if Jesus Yeshua ever said we must be baptized in order to enter the Kingdom. I take His declaration to Nico Demas as a reference to be born again by the Holy Spirit and His gift to all who will accept it, from the cross. It was water and blood that issued from His side when the centurion speared Him. Praise our Savior and god Jesus, amen

Many will be surprised when they see who made it into the Kingdom.

Acts 1:1-2 says after Jesus' ascension that He gave the apostles commandments via the Holy Ghost. So it was Jesus who prompted Peter to command NT believers to submit to baptism in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin. Since it is in obedience to this command that one's personal sin is remitted it is required of everyone. (Acts 2:38)

In the following scripture, Apostle Paul makes the point that the unrighteous, those who have not had there sins dealt with will not inherit the kingdom of God. Notice verse 11 ties forgiveness of sin with water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul also mentions the requirement to receive the Spirit of God. This parallels Jesus' statement about being born of water and Spirit in John 3:3-5:

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, AND by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 6:9-11)

 

[peldom10]

That water baptism was a subtle reference of the cleansing rituals for the priests. Not only did they have to be thoroughly bathed, they even had to do a lot of manscaping before they enter the Tabernacle of Meeting. It's in Numbers 8:5-7. That's just a ritual, a public declaration of a new life in Christ. A real transforming power comes from the Holy Spirit.

Repentance is commanded.
Water baptism is commanded and has it' s purpose....that of sin cleansing and soul purification just as repentance is.
Association with the Holy Spirit or replacement by the Holy spirit is not biblical.

The Holy Spirit stands alone...offered by God. It is part of the product of our sanctification.

 

[peldom10]

....timed out...

See post # 44 carried forward here;

Baptism is Required


Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

• 
  
• 
  

 

[peldom10]

The beauty of God’s Word is its purity and simplicity. Jesus Christ promised the thief on the cross paradise. Your own statement, “Christ could have gave him special dispensation” validates my point, and yet you’re being argumentative in an effort to push your views on baptism with unsupported insinuations.

I don’t engage with people who sow seeds of discord in an effort to push their views. I rest in the peace of God. May you also enjoy His peace.

You are welcome to engage as you wish. So am I on God's behalf when His word is being distorted.
Then God's word is..argumentative...you take that up with God......Geesscchh!! Kill the messenger...huh?
Not true..not my opinion about baptism...it is the Bible that says baptism is required. If you don't believe that..then you do not believe God;s word.
You have no point.
Baptism and the point here is separate.
Show me where the Bible says the thief was not baptized? You can't.

So what is your point other than just trying to be disagreeable with God's word. ...or His voice?

 

[peldom10]

Continue to plant and water those seeds! It is only through continuing to present scripture that truth will be revealed to many who do not yet see. For God's Word will not return void but will prosper where it is sent. (Isa. 55:11)

I would like to know where you found the following quote:

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;​

....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth.​

I can not tell you...don't remember that quote goes back many moons. Sorry.
Maybe I can help...what bothers you about it...I will try and locate it?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

....timed out...

See post # 44 carried forward here;

Baptism is Required


Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

• 
  
• 
  

Water only cleanses the body, the Blood cleanses the soul, and that's just the start. The penalty of sin was paid on the cross, but as long as we live, this is still a sinful world, and the Power of sin is still abound. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can we overcome it, and that is sanctification.

 

[Snacks]

Show me where the Bible says the thief was not baptized? You can't.

Show me where the Bible says the thief WAS baptized. You can’t. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Wansvic]

There are millions which agree with...wrong...all the time. So what is new?
He doesn't know if the thief was baptized or not. The Bible doesn't give us that detail.
The thief could have been a..... back slider...who had repented, been baptized and fell in his commitment. Also, Christ could have gave him special dispensation, etc.
We cannot say he was not baptized. There is no prove of that.

What is so unusual or difficult about those conditions?

Another important point is that the thief died prior to the command for obedience to Christian baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin. (Luke 24:47, 2:38)

 

[Wansvic]

I can not tell you...don't remember that quote goes back many moons. Sorry.
Maybe I can help...what bothers you about it...I will try and locate it?

No need to attempt to locate it. I was just curious and actually pleasantly surprised. I had the idea that Billy Graham promoted the sinner's prayer as the only requirement for one's salvation.

 

[PennEd]

The beauty of God’s Word is its purity and simplicity. Jesus Christ promised the thief on the cross paradise. Your own statement, “Christ could have gave him special dispensation” validates my point, and yet you’re being argumentative in an effort to push your views on baptism with unsupported insinuations.

I don’t engage with people who sow seeds of discord in an effort to push their views. I rest in the peace of God. May you also enjoy His peace.

Not to mention every deathbed conversion in history would result in eternal damnation, if these baptism necessary for salvation people were right.

Thankfully, they’re not.

 

[Wansvic]

Water only cleanses the body, the Blood cleanses the soul, and that's just the start. The penalty of sin was paid on the cross, but as long as we live, this is still a sinful world, and the Power of sin is still abound. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can we overcome it, and that is sanctification.

Actually according to the Word of God, believing it necessary and submitting to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus remits one's personal sins. This was only made possible through the the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In chapter 6 of Romans Paul explains the specifics concerning water baptism. Evidently many did not fully understand what actually happened when they were obedient to God's command. Nonetheless their sins were forgiven because they trusted God and stepped in faith and obeyed the command. Verse 6 of Romans 3 specifically states that the body of sin is destroyed IF a person has been planted together (baptized) into Jesus.

Consider as well that being baptized by the Holy Ghost results in the Holy Ghost coming to dwell inside and empower the believer. Whereas obedience to water baptism results in being buried with Jesus into his death where one's personal sin is destroyed. (Acts 2:38, 22:16...)

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Actually according to the Word of God, believing it necessary and submitting to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus remits one's personal sins. This was only made possible through the the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In chapter 6 of Romans Paul explains the specifics concerning water baptism. Evidently many did not fully understand what actually happened when they were obedient to God's command. Nonetheless their sins were forgiven because they trusted God and stepped in faith and obeyed the command. Verse 6 of Romans 3 specifically states that the body of sin is destroyed IF a person has been planted together (baptized) into Jesus.

Consider as well that being baptized by the Holy Ghost results in the Holy Ghost coming to dwell inside and empower the believer. Whereas obedience to water baptism results in being buried with Jesus into his death where one's personal sin is destroyed. (Acts 2:38, 22:16...)

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6

Baptism is a ritual that symbolizes CHILDBIRTH. That water is amniotic fluid. By immersing into the water, your old self is drowned in there, and when you burst out of the water, the first gulp of air you inhale is the new life, for "Spirit" also means breath as the life-giving breath that God breathed into Adam. Just saying you're a born again Christian doesn't mean anything, you gotta experience it, and being baptized is THE experience of being born again, that's it.

 

[presidente]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What if someone thought Jesus died, even died for our sins, but denied that He was Messiah, Lord, and Christ, and denied His resurrection. Does that person 'Believe in Jesus.'

Luke
23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

[/quote]

Did the man there know that Jesus was dying for our sins? Did Jesus declare there that any and all people who believe He died for our sins would be with Him in paradise?

 

[Wansvic]

Not to mention every deathbed conversion in history would result in eternal damnation, if these baptism necessary for salvation people were right.

Thankfully, they’re not.

It benefits no one to suggest deathbed conversions are a reality. I understand the concept of a deathbed conversion gives many peace. However, the concept goes against the Word. The first thing being the requirement of true repentance. People are responsible to make a conscience decision to change the direction of their life and pursue God's ways. Repentance is more than being sorry for neglecting to pursue God when it was possible. (Isa 55:6-7)

God is a just God and is no respecter of persons; His commands pertain to everyone. Obedience to God's commands throughout the Bible have always been required to fulfill specific purposes. And believing in the necessity and submitting in obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ results in one's personal sins being remitted. It is not a popular idea, but the bible says it is so.

Jesus said that unless a person is born of water and Spirit they will not enter the kingdom. (John 3:3-5) Many refuse to accept that Jesus meant water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost; however, the word confirms what He meant in many scriptures. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

Baptism is a ritual that symbolizes CHILDBIRTH. That water is amniotic fluid. By immersing into the water, your old self is drowned in there, and when you burst out of the water, the first gulp of air you inhale is the new life, for "Spirit" also means breath as the life-giving breath that God breathed into Adam. Just saying you're a born again Christian doesn't mean anything, you gotta experience it, and being baptized is THE experience of being born again, that's it.

According to Paul, man has no excuse for not understanding God's principles. Spiritual concepts can be seen in how God designed natural things. (Rom. 1:20) The natural birth is a parallel of the spiritual birth. Both require water and Spirit.

Consider that God could have made a baby pop out of a dry sack on the mother's back. But no. The natural birth provides evidence of what is required in the Spiritual birth process. Both water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit result in a person being born again.

Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[presidente]

According to Paul, man has no excuse for not understanding God's principles. Spiritual concepts can be seen in how God designed natural things. (Rom. 1:20) The natural birth is a parallel of the spiritual birth. Both require water and Spirit.

Consider that God could have made a baby pop out of a dry sack on the mother's back. But no. The natural birth provides evidence of what is required in the Spiritual birth process. Both water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit result in a person being born again.

Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I tried to convince a family to fill up the bathtub for a man with cancer. They opted for a kind of sprinkling-- a drop-- later, but I do not even know if he was actually conscious by that time, just too far gone.

We do not know if we will recover from illness or not, no matter what the doctor says. Someone could repent on his deathbed. It may be less 'noble' in some ways.

I seem to recall church leaders having a policies or opinions against appointing priests/elders who had converted in such situations and recovered in the first centuries of Christianity.